Romans 7: Who is the "I"? Before or After?

[Guest]

Just some thoughts:

I know I reply kind of like I have an answer to everything (and I don't)! Online Bible study and/or "quasi-debate" is a way I like to learn. Sometimes I might post something while not being fully convinced...just to get a reply (or opposing view)...to try to clear things up on what I really believe (what the Bible actually says)!

A couple things come to mind related to why I started this thread:

1. If Paul's "I" really was "a Jew" without Christ and under the law, the rest of Romans reads differently. If this is what it was...I have to make some serious life-changes (because of what the Bible really teaches)! It would be easier for me to think, "Ooops, I messed up again because I still have that "sinful nature" inside of me...and always will."

Something similar came up in my live when I went to AA (I am a former alcoholic). AA teaches, "Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic" and that alcoholism is a disease that you will always "have" even if you never drink again in your life. They say it is in your DNA. I believe that medical science has shown that some people do, in fact, have a genetic predisposition toward becoming alcoholics...my family qualifies me as in this category.

I strongly disagree with AA that I am still an alcoholic, much in the same way I disagree that I still have a "sinful nature" inside of my body (relating this to the thread and what some other Christians believe).

I may have a higher than average propensity toward drinking but I don't have an "alcoholic nature" as an indwelling enemy of my soul! Being that I have a fleshly human body, I had a propensity toward sin before becoming a Christian; a propensity that won almost all of the time. I still have the same body but am not convinced the Bible teaches that Christians have a propensity to sin. We are new creations in Christ.

(Gal 5, NKJV) 6 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Paul tells us that, as Christians, our propensity is toward being led by the Spirit! Some versions translate verse 17b as "...so you cannot do the things you want." I take Paul's "you" as meaning a person on their own without the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit inside us lusts (has very strong passion) against the flesh! (Has anyone heard a sermon on this...in their whole life?)...I haven't.....

It seems to me that folks who believe we still have a lurking "sinful nature" inside of us are not only incorrect about that, but miss the overall positive direction that all of these texts we have been studying point to! Our propensity is toward righteousness and our "nature" is a new nature in Christ!

Sean has alluded to the "victory over sin" passages (Amen!).

If Paul taught we have a "sinful nature" till we die...I have an excuse. Flip Wilson, the comdian, used to say, "The devil made me do it!" Those who think the Bible teaches we have a post-salvation "sinful nature" in us are in effect saying, "The flesh made me do it!"

My only excuse before the Lord when I sin is that my heart wasn't right; my thoughts got off of Christ; I sowed to the flesh (not my "sinful nature" that roars around inside me like a lion seeking to devour me)! I pretty well much believe this is what the Bible teaches...though I could be wrong (prove it!), lol

2. Most folks who hold to the "ongoing sinful nature" are either dichotomists or trichotomists (Christian Anthropology, "the doctrine of man"). Dichotmoists believe we have "two parts"...our bodies and our souls/spirits (the latter are about the same things). Trichomists believe we have "three parts"...bodies, souls, and spirits.

I hold to the Holistic view that sees us as "being one whole person." It is compatible with how the Jews of the Bible days saw things. We don't "have" a soul, imo: we are one. I don't want to go off into this far here but it has bearing on how people see the Bible...and Romans 7.

The Arminians I know who hold to either a dichotomist or trichotomist view tend to teach and preach in ways that I kind of see as "human effort"...they emphasize that we also have a "sinful nature" in us (most of them believe we do): They teach that when we sin it is due to being inherently bent to sin due to it.

I notice this often in Arminian churches I attend. You hear a lot about that how we always have to "overcome our flesh" and stuff like that. Along these lines, and others, I do not consider myself an Arminain.

Why not?

Because the emphasis is negative and based on human performance -- as opposed to -- what I think the Bible really teaches, emphasizing positive obedience (on the basis of a new nature)! I usually go to Arminian churches and some of the preachers are really good. But without fail it seems like there will be a "scolding" of some sort toward the end. I don't hold this against them...they think we still have a "lurking sinful nature" inside of us and that Romans 7 describes a normative Christian experience re: when we sin.

I don't know how to describe it but what Christ has done for us is so positive and so "there" that well, you just don't hear enuf of it! After I've worked hard all week long I don't like go to church only to hear about what a "wretched man" I am. Why not? Because in Christ I am NOT that guy any more! and no longer have a sinful nature! That "Rick" is GONE!

Praise GOD!

Ok, I better get goin, Thanks
Rick

[Guest]

Since we are trying to understand Paul exegetically (what his words mean): Do you think people who are "in the flesh," according to the Romans text, are or are not Christians? I still maintain Paul said they were not.

Yes and No. If we were not "in the flesh" we could not be exhorted to deny the desires of our flesh that we once walked in (Eph 2:3). But by that I don't mean Christians are those who live in this way, but rather are those who have been freed from this bondage.

I realize you may not have been posting "exegetically."

Which posts about which points?

I've assumed that most of us who post here knew the different uses of "flesh" (in the flesh, the flesh, according to the flesh, fleshly, etc.) and what they mean. "In the flesh" can simply mean: has (or had) a physical body. E.g., Acknowledging that Jesus came "in the flesh" in John's epistles (and how you used it, above).

You seem to see "the flesh" as some kind of entity...like a "sinful nature." I can't really tell, though, because I don't know when you are using technical terms (biblical words). E.g., Paul wrote "...those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom 8:7b). Yet Jesus pleased God "in the flesh" (with your use of the term, which is basically what John meant in his epistles: that Jesus had a physical body).

I don't know what a sinful nature is exactly. That's what I'm trying to flush out by thinking out loud. How technical do you want me to be?

In Gal 6:7 Paul is telling us what happens when anyone "sows and reaps." A Christian can "sow to his own flesh." The imagery of planting seeds & the harvest. This text has no real bearing on if we have a "sinful nature" kind of "the flesh" inside of us. It just says we have fleshly bodies....

But again, it looks like you see "the flesh" as a "sinful nature" that is inside of us or part of of us; in that you say it "tempts us." (Do you?). I don't know of any place that teaches this in Scripture.

We are tempted by the devil and by our own lust which is a work of the flesh. Lust is conceived in our minds (or hearts). And we could say we do this "in the flesh" (in the sense that we have physical bodies). I agree we choose what we will, or will not, do. We do this using our (free) will, imo.

Ok, so now I don't see what you are saying. It almost seems like you disagree with me, but when you explain yourself, it seems like you agree with me. You asked me where flesh tempts us, can you show me where lust is concieved in our hearts (minds)?

Eph 2:3 seems to say this: we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind

James 1:14 says: "but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed."

James doesn't mention Satan but our own evil desire. Sure Satan can tempt us, but are you saying that the desires of our flesh are not a temptation? I'm not sure I understand.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

What are the things of the flesh that people set their minds on?

How is this not exegetical? Maybe I'm just communicating poorly. It certainly is hard for me to put my belief of this subject in writing.

[Guest]

This is a great topic and it hits the very heart of Chritianity. There seems to be a concensus that Paul was speaking generically of someone who knew the law, and desired to do what was right, but could not because he did not "walk according to the Spirit", which was the key to overcoming sin (the desires of the flesh). Perhaps there is someone that didn't see it this way but it seems that most did.

With this in mind, I have two additional questions that are directly related to this topic.

Question 1
Practially speaking, what is one doing when he/she is "walking according to the Spirit?" Sean quoted one verse earlier which must apply which is:

Rom 8:5
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

So are we talking about, Bible study, praying, meditating, etc. or is there something more to it?

Question 2
In Rom 8:1 it says,

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Practically speaking, what is the "condemnation" referred to here? Is this something active which works on the heart of the disobedient, or is it something else?

Todd

[Guest]

Rom 8:5
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

So are we talking about, Bible study, praying, meditating, etc. or is there something more to it?


Maybe demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit like love,peace, joy, patience etc.

[Guest]

2. Most folks who hold to the "ongoing sinful nature" are either dichotomists or trichotomists (Christian Anthropology, "the doctrine of man"). Dichotmoists believe we have "two parts"...our bodies and our souls/spirits (the latter are about the same things). Trichomists believe we have "three parts"...bodies, souls, and spirits.

I hold to the Holistic view that sees us as "being one whole person." It is compatible with how the Jews of the Bible days saw things. We don't "have" a soul, imo: we are one. I don't want to go off into this far here but it has bearing on how people see the Bible...and Romans 7.


Rick, It's true that the jews believed in this "one whole person" but in the OT the Holy Spirit did not live in believers. I've never heard your view about the Christian, but that does'nt mean it's not true.

[Guest]

Maybe demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit like love,peace, joy, patience etc.

I always felt that the fruits of the Spirit were the result of (God's reward) walking according to the Spirit rather than something we actively chose to do.

Todd

[Guest]

I always felt that the fruits of the Spirit were the result of (God's reward) walking according to the Spirit rather than something we actively chose to do.

Good point i agree, so i guess walking according to the Spirit is obedience to Christ's teachings as well as the Apostles.

[Guest]

Rick:

2. Most folks who hold to the "ongoing sinful nature" are either dichotomists or trichotomists (Christian Anthropology, "the doctrine of man"). Dichotmoists believe we have "two parts"...our bodies and our souls/spirits (the latter are about the same things). Trichomists believe we have "three parts"...bodies, souls, and spirits.

I hold to the Holistic view that sees us as "being one whole person." It is compatible with how the Jews of the Bible days saw things. We don't "have" a soul, imo: we are one. I don't want to go off into this far here but it has bearing on how people see the Bible...and Romans 7.

Rick, I hold to the same Holistic view as you, including the belief that I do not have a soul (as in Greek philosophical thought), but that I am a soul.

However, I fail to see what bearing that is on how I see the Bible and Romans 7. Please explain.

I hold the view of a biologically inherited sinful nature.

[Guest]

In regard to my remarks on Romans 7, I assume Paul is speaking without hyperbole when he describes himself as being "sold", i.e. enslaved, v.7:14

"For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin." NAS

Rick has already mentioned Paul's remarks in Romans 6. It is worth noting that in chapter six Paul has affirmed three times that the Christian is not enslaved (vs. 6, 17, &20), and affirmed three times the Christian has been set free from sin (vs. 7, 18, &22) and in other words has affirmed their freedom in vs. 12 & 14.

In an earlier post I stated that I thought something could be found in every epistle of Paul that would contradict the idea that he was speaking of his experience as a Christian in Romans 7:14. My attempt to demonstate this follows:

1 Corinthians 9:24-27 NAS
24. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Here Paul affirms that he has made his body his slave!

2 Corinthians 7:1 NAS
1. Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

And how could one who is enslaved to sin hope to accomplish this?

Galatians 4:3-7 NAS
3. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
4. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
5. so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
6. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
7. Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Here Paul informs the Galatians that they were once in bondage, but with the indwelling Spirit, are no longer slaves.


Galatians 5:16-18 NAS
16. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

As Paul affirmed to the Corinthians that he has overcome the flesh, Paul assures the Galatians they can too.

Ephesians 5:6-10 NAS
6. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
7. Therefore do not be partakers with them;
8. for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light

And so also he expects of the Ephesians.

Philippians 4:13 NAS
13. I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

How could Paul say this if he was a slave of sin?

Colossians 3:5-11 NAS
5. Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7. and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
10. and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--
11. a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

The Colossians have "laid aside the old self" and put on a "new self", surely not an enslaved self.


1 Thessalonians 1:5-7 NAS
5. for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
6. You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
7. so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.

If Paul saw himself as a slave of sin, could he commend them for being imitators of him (and the Lord!) and as examples to others?

2 Thessalonians 3:3-5 NAS
3. But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
4. We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command you.

Doesn't seem that he considered them enslaved to sin.


1 Timothy 6:11-14 NAS

11. But flee from these things, you man of God, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance and gentleness.

12. Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

13. I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

14. that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

And Paul doesn't seem to have regarded Timothy as a slave of sin.

2 Timothy 4:7 NAS

7. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;

And Paul seems to have successfully "beat his body into submission" to the end!



Titus 2:11-14 NAS

11. For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

12. instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

13. looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

14. who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

And Paul's words to Titus show he expected them to be able to overcome the flesh.

And perhaps foremost of all, 1 Corinthians 11:1 NAS

1. Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

How could a slave of sin say this?

Whew! Glad that's done, but thought I ought to back up my claim (or gasconade ), or at least attempt to do so. At least it got me to read all Paul's epistles in an evening!

I must add that I do not believe we can attain a sinless state in this life (except temporarily), for "we all stumble in many ways". I simply wish to prove Paul was not a slave of sin in his Christian experience, and neither are we. There is always a way to escape.

[Guest]

I agree with Homer. But having said that, I'm going to ramble on a bit.
In my posts I took a different approach which was more cumbersome. I was looking at Paul as saying "In my flesh dwells no good thing, I have the desire to to good but I cannot carry it out". In other words, Paul is saying that without the Spirit his only resource is the flesh and the law. The law wasn't able to overcome our life in the flesh. Paul seems to be saying that without allowing the Spirit to lead you, the best you can hope for (with the law) is to desire to do good but you lack the ability to carry it out. Life in the Spirit gives us the ability to overcome this bondage. I guess I see the possibility of Paul saying that even those who have the Spirit can once again return to the law and the powerlessness of the flesh, becoming slaves all over again. He seems to express this in several places (Rom 8:12-13, Gal 3:3, 2 Pet 2:20). Therefore one who has the Spirit can still "set their mind on the desires of the flesh" (Gal 5:17). But Paul explains that we are not to do that, but rather be led by the Spirit and walk by the Spirit (Gal 5:16, 18, 25). In other words, while we now have the power to overcome sin by the Spirit, we still must resist the desires of the flesh and be led by the Spirit. Put simply, there are choices to be made, even as a Christian.

But in saying all that might, maybe I'm just (over?) emphasizing a different point of this issue and topic of Romans 7. I just have a hard time separating all these things when reading Romans 6-8.

I must add that I do not believe we can attain a sinless state in this life (except temporarily), for "we all stumble in many ways". I simply wish to prove Paul was not a slave of sin in his Christian experience, and neither are we. There is always a way to escape.

I agree that if Paul is speaking of the conversion experience then what exactly was gained in our walk? I mean, if we are still captive to sin then there doesn't seem to be any victory.

I can't count the number of times Romans 7 has been used as the picture of normative Christianity.