How do they know they are elect?

Post by **_SamIam** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:33 pm

Excuse me if this has been discussed before ...

How do the elect know they are elect?

Election is not based on anything they may or may not have done (or believed?), so the fact that they believe proves nothing about their election (or lack of election).

How can they tell if it is God's irresitible grace or a delusion?

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:03 pm

Could be wrong, but I believe Calvin would say they know they are elect if they persevere to the end. Their system would seem to demand that conclusion.

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:24 pm

There does not seem to be much difference between "kletos" (called)
and "ekletos" (called out ---- elect).

Jesus said, "Many are called, but few chosen".

Who are the chosen? The elect?

If so, then "Many are called, but few called out".
What does that mean?

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:44 pm

How do the elect know they are elect?

Good question!

According to the doctrine of election by John Calvin you will never know
that you are elect until the end of your life.

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:53 pm

According to the doctrine of election by John Calvin you will never know that you are elect until the end of your life.

And how do you know at the end of your life? Or did Calvin mean after you die ----- that is, in the life to come?

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:54 am

And how do you know at the end of your life? Or did Calvin mean after you die ----- that is, in the life to come?

If the person did not reject Christ at the end of his life then the bible tells us that he is save.

According to the doctrine of election that a person will never know that he is save until he reach the end of his life because he may not be one of the elect which means that if he is not one of the elect that he will certainly reject Christ sometime in his lifetime.

If I say that I believe in Christ right now and that I'm save my statement might not be true because one of the condition in the doctrine of election is that I must be one of the elect in order to be save. And If I'm not one of the elect then I might look like that I'm save right now but in the end I will certainly reject Christ because I was predestined to reject Christ.

Post by **__id_1887** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:09 pm

How do the elect know they are elect?

Is this question just being asked of Calvinists?

What does the non-Calvinist say about election?

Did you elect yourself? Does the president elect himself to office? Does a chosen person first choose themself so that they may be called one of the chosen?

II Peter 1:10-11
10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

A believers hope is in Christ. We look to the promises of Scripture. A believer ought to rest in the promises in the Bible and preach the Gospel to themselves daily.

One might also find incredible hope and joy in the fact that they have been radically changed by God. New desires, new attitudes, new creation. Also, a sometimes and ever increasing overwhelming realization of how sinful we are. Our sinful human nature becomes more obvious to us (but thankfully repulsive) as the sanctification process unfolds. It is an amazing thing that God would save a single sinner. God is light and in him there is no darkness. Yet at the same time, God is love.

Romans 10:11-13
11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Hebrews 12:1-2
12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

Resting in Christ,

Haas

Post by **_Derek** » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:22 pm

Hi there Haas,

What does the non-Calvinist say about election?

Did you elect yourself? Does the president elect himself to office? Does a chosen person first choose themself so that they may be called one of the chosen?

I don't have it all sorted out. But these days I lean toward the view that Christ is the elect (Is. 42:1; 1 Pet. 2:6; and we become elect by being "in Him" (Eph. 1:4).

I know that I'm saved based on my faith in Christ. Simple and plain. This faith is "acted out" by good works and a heart that longs to please God. If this faith should cease for some reason, I am no longer saved.

A believers hope is in Christ. We look to the promises of Scripture. A believer ought to rest in the promises in the Bible and preach the Gospel to themselves daily.

One might also find incredible hope and joy in the fact that they have been radically changed by God. New desires, new attitudes, new creation. Also, a sometimes and ever increasing overwhelming realization of how sinful we are. Our sinful human nature becomes more obvious to us (but thankfully repulsive) as the sanctification process unfolds. It is an amazing thing that God would save a single sinner. God is light and in him there is no darkness. Yet at the same time, God is love.

Do you not think that many people are self-decieved into thinking that all of these things are true of themselves? If I am not mistaken, that would be the Calvinist understanding of the "false convert". A necessary belief due to the Perseverence doctrine. I have read Calvinist writers who say one may continue on in this state for most or even all of their lives. Having a "false faith" rather than saving faith (this usually comes up when the scriptures that appear to teach that one can fall away are brought up for discussion).

Therefore, you would in the end, just have to wait until you die to see if you're really elect would you not?

By the way. Thanks for sticking around. You've been a blessing.

God bless,

Post by **__id_1887** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:45 am

Hey Derek,

Do you not think that people are self-decieved into thinking that all of these thing are true of themselves? If I am not mistaken, that would be the Calvinist understanding of the "false convert". A necessary belief due to the Perseverence doctrine. I have read Calvinist writers who say one may continue on in this state for most or even all of their lives. Having a "false faith" rather than saving faith (this usually comes up when the scriptures that appear to teach that one can fall away are brought up for discussion).

When I think of someone that might fall into this category I think of people that believe they can earn their salvation and play "church or religion" their whole lives.

I had a group from a local church help me out in my school the other day. They were such a wonderful group of people. They gladly did everything that I asked and the school looked great when they were done cleaning.

As they were leaving, I asked the woman that was in charge which church they belonged to. She said they were LDS. I smiled and said "Praise God! Your group is a blessing from God to us." She then went on to explain in great detail and with a sparkle in her eye how her ward was given a challenge to complete 200 work hours within a certain amount of time. Next, she told me that as of the school cleaning project that they had not just completed 200 hours, but that they completed 400 hours! I smiled and nodded and again repeated ""Praise God! Your group is a blessing from God to us."

My heart breaks for that woman and her church. My heart breaks for people that think they can earn God's love and salvation, because resting in God's amazing grace is truly sweet.

By the way. Thanks for sticking around. You've been a blessing.

Your welcome brother. I pray that we can love God's people together and somehow even love our enemies. Lord that you would grant such radical love.

In Christ,

Haas

Post by **__id_1887** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:51 am

Derek,

You wrote:

I don't have it all sorted out. But these days I lean toward the view that Christ is the elect (Is. 42:1; 1 Pet. 2:6; and we become elect by being "in Him" (Eph. 1:4).

Have you read much Barth, Torrance, and more recently Baxter Kruger?

Just curious.

Much love,

Haas