how can a good God create a world iwhere there is suffering

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_djeaton
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Post by _djeaton » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:39 am

Asimov wrote:
djeaton wrote:One can still have a choice and yet have the cognitive and reasoned know-how to realize the better course of action between an evil action and a good action.
Just because you are smart enough to not choose evil doesn't mean that evil no longer exists. My contention is that as long as it is possible for us to choose evil, evil exists. In order to do away with all evil, God would have to remove out ability to choose it as well. We can't have choice without alternatives. If you eliminate the alternatives, you eliminate choice. If no one chooses the alternative, the alternative still exists.
D.
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Post by _Paidion » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:23 pm

One can still have a choice and yet have the cognitive and reasoned know-how to realize the better course of action between an evil action and a good action.
Knowing the better course does not imply that a free-will agent will choose that course.

For example, today, more than any time in the last 100 years, people know the health consequences of smoking, the major ones being emphysema and lung cancer. Yet millions of people who know this, continue to smoke.

Many people who know that killing and torturing harms others and may bring adverse consequences to themselves. Yet they still do it.
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Post by _Asimov » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:31 pm

djeaton wrote:Just because you are smart enough to not choose evil doesn't mean that evil no longer exists. My contention is that as long as it is possible for us to choose evil, evil exists. In order to do away with all evil, God would have to remove out ability to choose it as well. We can't have choice without alternatives. If you eliminate the alternatives, you eliminate choice. If no one chooses the alternative, the alternative still exists.
D.
Then my next question would be, is God going to do away with evil completely?
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Post by _Asimov » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:35 pm

Paidion wrote:
One can still have a choice and yet have the cognitive and reasoned know-how to realize the better course of action between an evil action and a good action.
Knowing the better course does not imply that a free-will agent will choose that course.
To a certain degree. For instance, if one is morally perfect, then one would never choose the immoral path.

My main contention is, if you don't want your creation making the wrong choice, don't make them flawed.
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Post by _djeaton » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:48 pm

Asimov wrote:Then my next question would be, is God going to do away with evil completely?
If God can't be in the presence of evil and we will be spending eternity with Him, then yes. So I'd say that there will be no evil in the new heaven and new earth.
D.
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Post by _Asimov » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:41 pm

djeaton wrote:
Asimov wrote:Then my next question would be, is God going to do away with evil completely?
If God can't be in the presence of evil and we will be spending eternity with Him, then yes. So I'd say that there will be no evil in the new heaven and new earth.
D.
Then I don't see why you take issue with my concept of removing "choice" from the equation.

God can create a state of affairs where people do not suffer and choose good without being forced to do so.

God can create a state of affairs where people do not suffer and do not have a choice in good or evil.

Issues:

1) If God loves humans and wants to destroy suffering, and can do so without destroying any humans, yet hasn't done so and will not do so, what am I supposed to conclude?

2) If God is omnipresent and can't be in the presence of evil, how can evil exist?

3) In both of my examples, evil exists only as a concept, not as a concrete. How is it problematic that evil will be a possible but never chosen alternative?
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:53 am

asimov.

Quote:

, .."if one is morally perfect, then one would never choose the immoral path.

My main contention is, if you don't want your creation making the wrong choice, don't make them flawed".

Your first premise is meaningless. That's like saying there are no married bachelors. No one is morally "perfect".

Your second premise is problematic for the Christian view of God. You've
implied that God was "flawed" in creating man with the ability to obey or rebel against Him. If God is flawed He then created flawed beings who suffer and die as the result of their flawed choices. Therefore since God is flawed, then He cannot be good or moral. Is this your reasoning?
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:50 am

Paidion,

Quote: "Knowing the better course does not imply that a free-will agent will choose that course".

This may be a relative truth now. But will this premise be true in Heaven?
What will become of "free will" in the Final State when evil is quarentined?

Peace,
Bob
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Post by __id_1679 » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:30 am

Paidion,

Quote: " I recall that I used to say that if God eliminated suffering, He would have to eliminate free will (since man would be prevented from hurting his fellow man). However, man also suffers, not only from other men, but from disease, tornadoes, earthquakes, floods, etc. So we could also ask why God allows these "natural disasters" to cause suffering. Does he do it to punish, as some claim? I don't think so. Those who suffer from such disasters are "no worse sinners" than anyone else as Jesus said. [Luke 12:4] "

That there is suffering, whatever the cause, I think should be considered in the light of God's justice. I think Jesus had this in view when He said what He did in Lk 13:1-5. The primary cause of death is couched in the justice of God upon sin. The degree of sin as in the example of Jesus comment in the Luke passage is moot. Death comes to all eventually regardless of the means or degree. IMO, to paraphrase what Jesus said; look, don't concern yourselves with the reason these people died. The fact is your'e all going to die. And if you want to have any hope in the age to come, you better repent and believe!

There is another consideration. Is 57: 1. Sometimes the "righteous" are taken away to be spared from evil. Sometimes God is taking people out because of His mercy.

This leads me to an event in my experience that relates to our discussion.
I had a friend named Benny. Benny was what many would call a "super Christian", although he would never describe himself as such. He lived out his faith before all men. But he had some serious struggles in his faith as we all do from time to time. His went deeper than most. We talked about it. We wept together and prayed for God to give him peace over "his thorn in the flesh". He was raised in the church and was an ordained pastor, mainly with the youth. He really shined with kids. He was a pretty good musician as well. He was the kind of guy who would give you anything you needed if it was in his power to do so. I can't say enough good things about him. He was a model Christian. Benny was really loved by a lot of people.
One afternoon, he was returning from his grandsons bithday party. It was pretty stormy with a lot of rain. As Benny was coming around a curve in his truck, an old oak tree fell upon the cab . He was crushed inside the cab and died instantly. Now this tree had been there for over 100 years. Millions of people have driven the same route past that tree with no incidents. IMO, Benny had his prayer answered. He is at peace with the Prince of Peace. But, many thought otherwise. Some thought God was unfair. Some peoples faith in God was diminished by the death of such a "good" person.
Benny "suffered" many things in the course of his life. He was a Godly man who struggled with his faith. He "wrestled" with God on many occasions.
Was his suffering without purpose? Did he die an untimely death? Was there some sin in his life that God chose to end his life?
Food for thought.
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_Asimov
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Post by _Asimov » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:04 pm

Traveler wrote: Your first premise is meaningless. That's like saying there are no married bachelors. No one is morally "perfect".
No it isn't, what a baseless rebuttal. Gainsaying my argument isn't a valid refutation.

[/quote]
Your second premise is problematic for the Christian view of God. You've
implied that God was "flawed" in creating man with the ability to obey or rebel against Him. If God is flawed He then created flawed beings who suffer and die as the result of their flawed choices. Therefore since God is flawed, then He cannot be good or moral. Is this your reasoning?[/quote]

No, my implication is that God created something flawed.
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