N.T. Wright: What did Paul really say?

User avatar
_Rick_C
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:14 am
Location: West Central Ohio

N.T. Wright: What did Paul really say?

Post by _Rick_C » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:18 am

Greetings,

After considering where to start this thread I decided to enter it here, with some reluctance. What N.T. Wright teaches is controversial in relation to justification and "imputed righteousness." However, I feel he has something to offer, whether one is a Calvinist, non-Calvinist (or Arminian)...or just a believer!

N.T. Wright, I should point out, has a lot to say about the Kingdom of God (which is to say he offers much more than this one issue of justification/imputed righteousness).

I highly recommend this lecture series by way of introduction to the thought of N.T. Wright (and also it is a good review of Reformed or "Covenant" theology!):

The Doctrine of Justification
in the Work of N.T. Wright,
by Bill Wilder
,
Director of Educational Ministries
Delivered
March - April 2005
Center for Christian Study,
Charlottesville, VA

The Course Description wrote:For the past twenty-five years the world of biblical scholarship has been shaken by the so-called "Sanders Revolution" and the "New Perspective" on Paul. Tremors are now increasingly felt in the church as well. Denying that the Judaism of Paul's time was legalistic or characterized by an emphasis on "works-righteousness," proponents of this new and now dominant approach in scholarship have demanded a thorough reappraisal of Paul's view of the law. Even some of those critical of the "New Perspective" per se have begun (for other reasons) to question the traditional Protestant formulations of justification by faith rather than by works and the imputation of the alien righteousness of Christ. Suddenly it seems that everything is being redefined: the faith/works contrast, the righteousness of God, imputation, justification.

Drawing on the insights of the "New Perspective" and yet fitting into no particular school—indeed, forging his own paradigm in a way that defies easy categorization—N.T. Wright has moved to the center of the current reevaluation of old assumptions. Determined to follow the New Testament trail wherever it leads, Wright is a guide who can be as disorienting as he is brilliant. Old, familiar landmarks have been moved to new locations with new functions: what used to be the bank on the corner is now the courthouse next door, as it were. Nevertheless, Wright's importance as a scholar and as a churchman (he is the bishop of Durham for the Church of England) commends his work for our closest attention. Indeed, our understanding of crucial passages in the New Testament and Paul is at stake.

The purpose, then, of this lecture series is to examine the work and thought of N.T. Wright, particularly with respect to the doctrine of justification, within its proper contexts: the revolution within Pauline studies in the last quarter century; the traditional formulations of the church; and, most especially, the thought-world of first-century Judaism and of that most provocative of Jews and Christians, the apostle Paul.
I've listened to all four of these lectures a few times. Bill Wilder explains what traditional Reformed theology (and actually, what most Protestant theology) teaches on justification and contrasts it with the NPP ("New Perspective on Paul") and, more specifically, with the teachings of N.T. Wright.

Wright's "Romans in a Day" are probably his best "introductory" lectures & can be found here: NTWRIGHTPAGE.COM. There's a lot of information to digest in these three lectures. But I recommend them for "starters" as Wright outlines what he thinks Paul taught in Romans -- as well as covering the current controversial issues in Pauline studies. I've listened to quite a few other lectures on the NPP and N.T. Wright, pro and con, and have links to them (and can provide them here, later)....

For now I don't have much to comment about. I'm still studying and taking a lot in! Briefly, I'll say, "I think Wright is onto something" (actually, he's onto many things as his teaching is all encompassing). The area of dispute regarding what Wright teaches is in the theological category of "imputed righteousness" and/or the doctrine of justification. Wright does not believe Paul taught that we receive God's own and/or Christ's own righteousness: it is not "imputed" to us. Rather, being justified by God is His declaration to us "that we are in the right" (in right relationship to God) as Wright states it.

Another way Wright explains this is how a judge doesn't give (or impute) his own personal righteousness to a defendant: as a righteous judge retains this personal characteristic within himself (regardless of his declaration (decision) on any case). God, as our judge, does declare us "not guilty" by reason of the death of Jesus for our sins. But in doing so, God has not given (imputed) His own, or Jesus' own, righteousness to us. Justification, according to Wright, is God's declaration that we are "justified (forgiven) sinners" and that, in having this new status, we are members of His family: "Justification is our badge of covenant membership," he says.

If N.T. Wright is right, we need to do some rethinking about not only Reformed theology, but Protestant theology in general.

Well, it's been a long week...I need some rest. 'Just wanted to get this thread started.
Thanks,
Rick

P.S. I realize N.T. Wright teaches some things that are controversial and that some Reformed and/or Calvinist people have a very low opinion of him....And I don't want to get into (yet another) "big ugly debate"...I'm interested in learning...and hope y'all can understand this, and if you care to join in, please do: God Bless! :)
Last edited by _Rich on Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:38 am, edited 4 times in total.
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

User avatar
_Rick_C
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:14 am
Location: West Central Ohio

Post by _Rick_C » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:28 am

I had this linked on another FBFF thread:

New Perspectives on Paul,
an address by N.T. Wright,
Bishop of Durham, England,
2003 (text format)


Added here for overall context.......................Thanks again, Rick :wink:
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

User avatar
_mattrose
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:39 pm
Location: Western NY

Post by _mattrose » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:21 pm

Thanks for the links. I hope to find time to listen later.

I think I've read 6 or 7 Wright books now. For me, they don't seem very controversial. As I stated last year in the other thread, it mostly seems like he's just confirming stuff I already believed but hadn't fleshed out in words. And sometimes his views don't seem extremely different than traditional protestant views so much as merely a different emphasis.

Needless to say, I very much enjoy reading his books, though I read them very slowly. I find the more edifying a book is the slower I read.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'

I agree with the second part (se7en)

User avatar
_Rick_C
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:14 am
Location: West Central Ohio

Post by _Rick_C » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:07 am

Hello Matt,
You wrote:Thanks for the links. I hope to find time to listen later.

I think I've read 6 or 7 Wright books now. For me, they don't seem very controversial. As I stated last year in the other thread, it mostly seems like he's just confirming stuff I already believed but hadn't fleshed out in words. And sometimes his views don't seem extremely different than traditional protestant views so much as merely a different emphasis.

Needless to say, I very much enjoy reading his books, though I read them very slowly. I find the more edifying a book is the slower I read.
You're welcome (for the links).

Since I first got on the web (in late 1999) I haven't read nearly as many books. I read a lot of stuff online and listen to mp3's like, almost daily. I didn't listen much till I found Steve's (narrow path) site & started downloading (late 2004 after hearing Steve on "Hank"). I've only read N.T. Wright's book(s?) with Marcus Borg (I think they put out 2 of them).

You're "right about Wright" (haha) in that he's essentially "orthodox" on things like The Historical Jesus and is one of the best apologists for the literal, bodily, resurrection of Jesus today.

However, he's not "orthodox" on his views of justification ("orthodox" meaning, in this sense, he doesn't fit into "protestant orthodoxy"...though I believe he's probably "Bible orthodox" on justification). We're supposed to be loyal to the Bible over all else (including any cherished theologies)...if you see what I'm saying.

After listening to Wright's talks and talks about Wright (pro & con) and continuing to digest Wright's thought I'm starting to see more clearly what he is saying. His "mono-covenantism" makes a lot of sense as distinguished from the Reformed "bi-covenantism"....imo.

Anyway, Bill Wilder's lectures have a whole lot of topics which would make it hard to post about on the web on one thread. There's soooooo much to talk about. For now, we have this thread...for wherever it may take us!

God bless you, Matt, & Thanks,
Rick

P.S. Have you read What Saint Paul Really Said or Wright's New Interpreter's Bible Commentary on Romans? These two: I'd like to! (but can't afford them...my library should be able to get them tho)! :)
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

User avatar
_mattrose
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:39 pm
Location: Western NY

Post by _mattrose » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:42 pm

P.S. Have you read What Saint Paul Really Said or Wright's New Interpreter's Bible Commentary on Romans? These two: I'd like to! (but can't afford them...my library should be able to get them tho)! Smile
I have read:
NT and the People of God (Volume 1 of his big series)
Jesus and the Victory of God (Volume 2)
The Last Word (on the authority of Scripture)
The Challenge of Jesus
What Saint Paul Really Said
And I'm in the midst of Volume 3 of the big series.

I might be forgetting one, not sure
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'

I agree with the second part (se7en)

User avatar
_Rick_C
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:14 am
Location: West Central Ohio

Post by _Rick_C » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:08 am

Matt,

Good for you!

I've glanced at The Last Word (on the authority of Scripture) at my library but am not into "inerrancy & inspiration" right now.

Aren't you in The Church of God, Anderson, Indiana? The reason I ask is that I go to one occasionally and have never heard the pastor teach anything I didn't agree with (though I am a "charismatic" of sorts...but he never said anything about that topic, for or against).

I know the "COGAI" is amillennial (so am I) and, from the pastor's sermons, and all I've heard NTW say about the Kingdom of God...it seems like they are saying the same stuff! Interesting.....
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

User avatar
_mattrose
Posts: 349
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:39 pm
Location: Western NY

Post by _mattrose » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:47 pm

I'm not from the Church of God Anderson Indiana, but last year I read through Ron Rhodes book "The complete guide to Christian denominations" and made a list of the 10 groups that best seemed to fit my beliefs and COGAI was ranked #1. I've only been to 1 COGAI worship service, but I was very edified.

I'm actually in the Wesleyan denomination. I'm quite content to remain in the Wesleyan Church even though I'm closer in doctrine to COGAI. Most wesleyan's aren't amillennial, but they've never kicked me out for describing a variety of views and then sharing my beliefs (which are amillennial).

'The Last Word' was pretty good. Wright comes at the topic of the authority of Scripture in a similar way as Steve insofar that the true authority is Christ and Scripture is only authoritative so long as the books contained in it were ordained by Him. I can't remember disagreeing with his view, though I'll have to re-read what I underlined sometime soon to refresh my memory.

I think I like the big volume series best though
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'

I agree with the second part (se7en)

User avatar
_Rick_C
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:14 am
Location: West Central Ohio

Post by _Rick_C » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:59 am

Matt,

Okay...Yes, I think I remember reading about how you were "compatible" with COGAI on a thread here. Maybe it was on that theology quiz thing we had(?).

I've visited one Wesleyan church. It reminded me a lot of the Pentecostal church I grew up in. (Everyone prays out loud...but the Wesleyans here go to the altar and do that at the beginning, not the end, of the service)...Why not? I kind of liked that...."Get with God" right from the start, Amen! Actually, this was quite impressive. Why wait till it's almost time to go home? Amen, again!

I think you've convinced me to go check out "The Last Word," Matt. After that, I hope to get the rest of NTW's books via the library also...till I might be able to afford them.

Another NTW lecture link where he talks about First Century Jewish Thought (How First Century Jews -- and Jesus Himself! -- viewed God, the Messiah, "Divine Mediator Figures," etc.):

N.T. Wright Page:
download "Jesus and God" lecture


(Actually, I just found this lecture in text):
"Jesus and the Identity of God"
by N.T. Wright


I'm assuming this lecture is "like the book".......awesome stuff.

Well, we've not really gone into NTW and what Paul said on the thread but I don't mind posting links!

God Bless you, Matt. Btw, Michelle told me she's listening to Bill Wilder's lectures & likes em (Hi Michelle).......tc all, Rick :)
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

__id_1887
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Post by __id_1887 » Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:18 pm

Here is a link from a reform theologian on NPP (It's is long and I am working my way through it).

The Attractions of the New Perspective(s) on Paul

By J. Ligon Duncan
Alliance President
A Transcript of a paper given in Jackson, Mississippi and Glasgow, Scotland



edit: link temporarily removed

In Christ,

Haas
Last edited by vernesmooth on Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Rick_C
Posts: 146
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 5:14 am
Location: West Central Ohio

Post by _Rick_C » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:15 am

Hello Haas,

Check this out, if you would, please:


"How to post a link" . . . .


It sure would help me out.



Thanks,
Rick
Last edited by _Rich on Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

Post Reply

Return to “Calvinism, Arminianism & Open Theism”