Faith is "trust" ... not a "work"

[Guest]

Perry & Derek,

The link Haas gave probably has the most hits of all "monergistic" (Calvinist and/or Reformed) websites (it's huge and has lots of lectures).

"Monergism" and "synergism" are related to the thread topic. I may just go ahead and start a new thread on them but will try to answer your questions here or there later (like most Calvinistic doctrines they are very complicated and have "specific applications"...have to "fit in just right"...etc.).

I always go to my Mom's place on the 4th....so....ttyl......................Rick

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

Forgive me for butting in. I am curious about a comment you made and perhaps you could clarify it; "Can non-believers have any level of faith"?

On the surface, it sounds like an oxymoron. Taking your question at face value and asumming you mean faith in Christ, I would say no,they are non-believers. If however you mean a person who has "some" level of faith meaning what Jesus described as "mustard seed faith", then I would say yes. However they would not be best described as "non-believers".

Also, imo, faith doesn't grow in the heart of the unbeliever, because he is an un- believer and therefore remains in "trespass and sin". The Holy Spirit alone "convicts of sin and testifies of Christ" whether or not the gospel has any effect upon an "un-believer". The unbeliever will be without excuse if the Gospel is rejected, and therefore will be convicted of his unbelief. To turn an unbeliever into a believer, takes the "quickening" of the Spirit, which makes him "alive" to the things of Christ, rendering him willing to respond to the Gospel and come in faith, no matter the size of that faith. We are back to the issue of what is involved in regeneration
again!

Quick question for all: Did anyone come to faith in Christ "kicking and screaming"?

Have a blessed 4th,
Bob

[Guest]

Bob,

You wrote:

Also, imo, faith doesn't grow in the heart of the unbeliever, because he is an un- believer and therefore remains in "trespass and sin".

And:

Quick question for all: Did anyone come to faith in Christ "kicking and screaming"?

Not me!

What I would like to know is how many there are who can honestly say they suddenly switched from unbelief to faith? If seems usually faith grows from a very tiny thing, something tentative, grows to a point where by an act of faith, a person becomes "in Christ", (and then, and only then, is no longer in trespass and sin) and then that faith continues to grow. Do you think there are many, if any, who suddenly switch from total unbelief to saving faith?

[Guest]

My personal experience was one of seeking and being sought. I did a lot of reading, arguing, etc. to find what I thought was the truth.

At first I became convinced of the existence of God, then the Christian God. I didn't even give my life to Him when I first believed. It took some time during which God was working on me, convicting me, and presuring me through circumstances to give my life to Him. And then of course I did.

I would have to say that I did have some measure of faith before I became a Christian. I would have to say that faith did, in fact, "grow in the heart of an unbeliever" in my case.

[Guest]

Derek,

I think the great error that is made is in seeing saving faith as a momentary thing whereas it is actually "he who keeps on believing" will be saved. And you are right. A person can believe the facts and yet resist acting in accordance with that knowledge.

[Guest]

Thanks brothers!

For me also, it was a "process". Its why I believe regeneration is a process. Germination of a "seed" doesn't happen over night. The ground must be prepared and the soil must contain all the elements to not only recieve the seed, but also to create the conditions for growth. Once the seed has sprouted and become visable above ground (is born), it still requires nurture, i.e. water, fertilizer, pruning, weeding etc. to maintain growth and produce fruit. Who but the Farmer provides what his plants need?

Homer you wrote: "Do you think there are many, if any, who suddenly switch from total unbelief to saving faith"? Well perhaps Paul. But, he had a well rounded education to say the least prior to his conversion. Since he
knew the Law, the Prophets and the Writings, I am sure he had the same messianic expectations his fellow Pharisees did. He just didn't believe
Jesus
was the One of whom Moses spoke. You might say when the Lord "introduced" himself to Paul, he made the connection! Nevertheless,
had the Lord not intervened as I've said before, he would have continued persecuting Christians. The "seed" imo, was planted in Paul long before he came to faith. Likewise with me and most Christians I've talked to.
IMO, regeneration involves a lot more than when we first believed. There was a lot going on "underground" in the dirt prior so to speak.

[Guest]

Greetings,

One thing I've noticed is topics shifting back and forth on different threads. Like, we are now sort of talking about "regeneration" here. I'm not complaining about it or anything like that. But it makes it hard to focus.

I introduced a new thread: "Hermeneutics: the right questions, the right answers" to try to get to some basic issues.

Derek & Perry,

"Monergism" and "synergism" are directly related to this thread's topic and I may or may not start a new thread on them. As far as that goes, a thread on (just) "Regeneration" would have been a good thing...leave alone "when" it happens. That is, What is it? should sort of come first, right? lol

Bob,

I have stuff I could post about what you guys are recently discussing (about regeneration). I mean, more stuff from the Bible. Maybe a new thread, I don't know....

Homer,

I think the great error that is made is in seeing saving faith as a momentary thing whereas it is actually "he who keeps on believing" will be saved.

These kinds of details need to be looked at one at a time, it seems to me. For example, Yes, it is true Christians need to keep believing after having the initial saving-faith (that's one topic). But what happens to a "pre-Christian" before they have saving-faith (is another topic). I have to get going for now though.....

God bless till next time,
Rick

[Guest]

If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?"

(Emphasis added by Perry.)

So receiving a gift is not a work?

I think that calvinism probably teaches the the gift of grace is something that is received in much the same way an unconcious man dieing on a medical bed receives treatment. (i.e. through no action of his own). Whereas the synergistic model described above implies something more like, I'm holding a Christmas present out to you, and it is necessary for you to reach out and take it in order to receive it.

Is that pretty close?

Perry

[Guest]

At first I became convinced of the existence of God...

This is probably going to sound really weird.

For me my first realization was in the existance of the devil. I came to see an unavoidable tendency (in myself) toward doing wrong for which I couldn't account and for which I could find no logical rational.

This realization came after I read Benjamin Franklin's autobiography, and, like Ben, made my own attempt at moral improvement.

It didn't work.

It really didn't work.

That didn't make sense to me at all. I was reasonably intelligent, I thought, and there were obvious intelligent, logical, rational reasons for me not to do some of the bad things I was doing. In a morally neutral environment, this intellectual decision to do the right thing should have been enough.

It wasn't.

This downward pull of evil convinced me that there must be some sort of spiritual influence at work. Once I acknowledged the existance of this spiritual realm, it made perfect sense to me that, as much as the bad things I witnessed in myself and in the world were the result of an evil spiritual presence, all the good things that I witnessed in myself and in the world must necessarily be the result of the presense of a good and positive Spirit.

It was this realization, along with some other things that were going on in school at the time, that turned me towards the bible and, eventually, to God.

Perry

[Guest]

Re: monergism and synergism...I'm starting a new thread. But first, brief replies here.

From the website haas linked it wrote:
If anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (Emphasis added by Perry.)

So receiving a gift is not a work?

I think that calvinism probably teaches the the gift of grace is something that is received in much the same way an unconscious man dieing on a medical bed receives treatment. (i.e. through no action of his own). Whereas the synergistic model described above implies something more like, I'm holding a Christmas present out to you, and it is necessary for you to reach out and take it in order to receive it.

Is that pretty close?

You also asked:
So is it the calvinistic position that receiving a gift is a "work" or a "synergism" with God?

Calvinists are "monergists." A short definition of monergism: "one work" or "one working alone." It follows that the gift of salvation, in Calvinist thought, is what God does. It is God's work entirely.

Calvinists believe "dead men can do nothing" so your analogy of an unconscious person isn't a good one to explain Calvinism from their point of view (as a person getting surgery is alive).

Comment on the link quote: Calvinists acknowledge that God "assists" the Elect, but before they are regenerated, "dead men can do nothing" (they can't have faith, be obedient, humble, etc.). What the quote says is something like: "God assists the regenerated Elect by enabling them, to then, have faith. And this faith is, in fact, a "divinely given grace (a gift)."

See why we need a new thread? I haven't touched on synergism yet, lol
Can we restrict further posts about monergism and synergism to the new thread? (I think it will cover more details than this one)....

Derek,

I'll offer better definitions on the new thread (which should be up some time this evening).

gtg to the store....no food..............................Rick