A Remnant of Christians in Bethlehem

[Guest]

I almost posted this on the Eschatology board but decided to post it here because it deals with more than eschatology.

I saw this on CBN News Saturday night:
Tried by Fire: Bethlehem's Remnant
By Gary Lane
CBN News
June 22, 2007

Because of the aggressive spread of extremist Islamic ideas like this [Jihad], thousands of Palestinian Christians have fled Palestinian-controlled areas like Bethlehem.

Bethlehem is the birthplace of Christ and was once a Christian city. But today, Christians are only about 10 to 15 percent of the population here. Some observers say that if the mass exodus continues, within another generation it could become a city of Christian holy sites without any Christian residents.

Despite this mass exodus, members of the First Baptist Church in Bethlehem have chosen to stay, to be a beacon of light in this community. And for that, some have paid a high price.

That's because not only do they share their faith with others, they embrace the Old Testament along with the New - the entire Bible as the word of God, including the promises to the Jews.

"We are born-again Christians; we believe in God's promise with Abraham," First Baptist Pastor Steve Khoury said. "It's an everlasting covenant from God, it's an everlasting covenant with Abraham. He made it with him and his offspring. That is not very well respected in our culture, in our territory that we live in, the Palestinian territory."

For that, they are persecuted not only by Muslims who see them as Zionist supporters of Israel, but by traditional Christians who embrace a belief known as "replacement theology."

Replacement theology is the idea that Christians have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people. And like the Muslim majority, many say God gave Israel and the Palestinian territories to them, not the Jews.

Churches that teach otherwise are attacked because they are viewed as Zionists, betrayers of the Palestinian cause.

I believe in (so-called) "replacement theology" which is actually a somewhat derogatory name designed by dispensationalists. What struck me in this report was how these people are so loyal to dispensationalism in Bethlehem that they are staying in the face of persecution!

The majority of my family are dispensationalists. I've come to see them as "Christians who are kind of like a Jewish denomination" as they believe there are Two Chosen People -- and -- that we should support Israel (and oppose Palestinians) or we will come under a "curse" from God! (Btw, a few years ago, my family and I agreed not to discuss this any more (never again!)... and they appear to be as devoted to dispensationalism as these people in Bethlehem...and can get really upset about what they also call "replacement theology")!

Are these Bethlehem (Baptist) Christians being persecuted for Christ? or for dispensationalism? or (somehow, strangely and oddly) both?

I don't know what kind of persecution the dispensationalists are getting from "traditional Christians" in Bethlehem. I can't recall if the report said it came to violence or not. What would be the correct thing for the traditional Christians to do (for us to do)? I've never thought about it till now but I'm going to start praying this false teaching will cease.

Dispensationalism is so much like a "cult," imo. Yet, most of my family believes in it...and they can get really (really) angry about it...like almost to the point that "You aren't a Christian!" if you don't believe in it (scary). Dispensationalism is a corruption of the Gospel in essential ways but I won't go into it now. "Jesus loves you but please move! you Palestinians!" is NOT the Gospel...(or Good News of any kind for that matter & I'll leave it at that)....

I've known that "other" Christians have left Bethlehem. ALL Christians are being persecuted ALL OVER the Middle East. There is only one church in the West Bank the last time I heard, a few months ago. I don't have much "spare change" right now but I do know that Arab and Palestinian Christians want more Bibles. What can we do for these people...other than pray for them? Should we pray for the Baptists (there) that they will reject dispensationalism?
Thanx...................Rick

[Guest]

Ugggh don't even get me started on Dispensationalism. I was raised in a die hard dispensational independant pentecostal church and came out of the confused teachings of dispensationalism some 11 years ago.

I think we should pray for them that God will open their eyes to the truth of His word. personally I think dispensationalism's days are numbered. it's continued failed predictions and confused contradictory teachings will eventually bring it down.

[Guest]

I'm not dispensational but i support Israel and i think it's rebirth is not from a self fulfilling prophecy.
But i'm not anti-Palistinean and my hope is that they follow the example of the Kurds in Kurdistan and become a productive enterprenurial nation. And of course i hope and pray that they all accept Christ one day, maybe in "that day."

[Guest]

I feel your pain Brother. I too am dealing with Dispensational fanatics. But the kind that I am dealing with are of the worse sort, they don't even understand there own position!! They just wear the badge of dispensationalism, and brag how guys like Perry Stone, Hal Lindsey, and Jack Van Impe are the supreme "prophecy" teachers. It can be very confusing to try and share another view with them, seeing that there teachers have poisoned the well. I was talking with a dispensational brother the other day, and he said "Amills spiritualize the scriptures". And that to him was not the way to do things. When I explained to him that this was just a "buzz" word by those of the pre-trib position to give there own view validity, he just went on to something else.

But I still love the guy, and hopefully he will begin to see the contradictions inherent in his view, and look to scripture rather than the newspaper for his theology.

[Guest]

I was talking with a dispensational brother the other day, and he said "Amills spiritualize the scriptures".

Of course dispensaltionists do their own fair share of "spiritualizing" too... either that, or they expect that at some point in the future, actual swords will be forged into actual pruning hooks, and that the war of armageddon will be fought on horseback... etc.

My own background is dispensational, and I haven't gone to great lengths to study eschatology recently. It's just not high on my list of study topics right now.

Point is though, that the dispensationalist "spiritualizes" too, and that's how I would answer one who accused me a spiritualizing too much.

Perry

[Guest]

Point is though, that the dispensationalist "spiritualizes" too, and that's how I would answer one who accused me a spiritualizing too much.

Why should'nt the scriptures be spiritualized? The Apostles did it and Jesus did it more then anyone, "My words are spirit and life."

[Guest]

Are these Bethlehem (Baptist) Christians being persecuted for Christ? or for dispensationalism? or (somehow, strangely and oddly) both?

I think these Christians believe that they are being persecuted for Christ's cause but the palestinians might be persecuting them because they are afraid that Christians will try to still their land from them.

[Guest]

Benaiah,

Jesus prayed, "Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth" (Jn 17:17). That prayer was for us and all who truly believe. Amen, we should pray this too!

Brody,

I have to admit that, at times, I wonder if some of the dispensationalists are really saved. The mean-spirited things they say about Amillennialists, "replacement theology," and so on...really make me wonder.

Perry,

I'm trying to come to a full(er) view of Scripture and "consolidate" my beliefs. All doctrines tie together or are related in one way or another...if you know what I mean. I see what you're saying though

Paulespino,

These people are essentially Zionists and teach the land belongs to Israel. They also believe that "God is bringing the Jews 'back to the land' to repossess it." And after He does, they say 2/3rds of them will be killed by the Antichrist. What kind of gospel ("good news") is this? Something like? "Well, if you get enough lucky to survive the great tribulation you can get saved when Jesus comes back to earth because He is your messiah. He will offer animal sacrifices for your sins too." How odd can it get? Is this Christianity, folks? How much ignorance can God tolerate in these matters?

One last thing. About 25% of the Christians in the world are Pentecostal. Pentecostals in the USA are dispensationalist (I'm former A/G myself). During the charismatic movement people from all over the world came to Springfield, MO (A/G headquarters) for guidance on doctrine. I've read that some Pentecostals want something equivalent to the Catholic Magisterium (which defines all doctrines). My concern is, that, as Pentecostalism grows -- and there will be more of them than Muslims by 2050 at current rates of growth -- that dispensationalism could become more prominent than it is now. Much, much, much more so. I've tried to find out what these (non-USA) Pentecostals believe but haven't found anything about it, really. I'm assuming they are all dispensationalist....

Thanks,
Rick

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

I tried to get some interest going concerning Israel on another thread. It
"petered out " rether quickly. Although I am not a traditional pre-trib dispensationalist, I do believe God is not "finished" with Israel. Also it would be bad theology to view the Church as a "replacement" of Israel IMO. The church is the continuation of Israel not its replacement.

I copied and pasted from another thread some of my thoughts on the matter:

Allyn wrote:



"I know this discussion has had its time in the light before, but its good to do it again. I feel others will want to join in, but I would ask that before I do any more on this thread that you, Bob, copy and paste the pertinent passage that give you your understanding. I am assuming you are referring to Romans chapters 9-11. If so, then post from those chapters and we will be happy to give our point of view as varied as it may be."

Romans 9-11: Paul is IMO, speaking of 4 groups of people:
1) Israel as a nation in general; 2) The present Remnant 3) The Church composed of the Remnant and the believing Gentiles 4) unbelieving Israel and her future acceptance of Christ and being re-grafted into the Vine.

Ezek 16:59-63; Promise of Atonement, Ezek 20:32-44 Judgement and restoration, Ezek 34-36, False shepherds, Messiah's rule on the throne of David, restoration to the land in security under the New Covenant.

Jer 23, 24, 30-31 "The Righteous Branch", promise of a new heart, the New Covenant and asscociated promises.

Hosea 3:4-5, 11:1-8 Reconcilation and love of His divorced wife Israel

Zech 8,10,12-14. Restoration of the repentant nation and the grace of the ONE whom they've pierced.

These scriptures among others and the fact that Israel is back in the Land
is why I believe God is not finished with them yet as a distinct people. They are distinct from the Church in the sense of being broken off the True Vine. But Paul said they can and will be grafted back into the Vine provided they repent. They are back in the Land not so much because of an inherent right to it as some may believe. God is the landowner. Neither are they there because of any "blood" relation to Abraham, although God did give it to him in perpituity and to his seed (Christ). They are back in the land IMO for at least two reasons; #1 God said he would bring them back and he would bring them to repentance "to show the holiness of his GREAT NAME they have profaned among the nations" and #2 that the nations may know that the LORD is God.

Now when it will all play out and how, is anybody''s guess. But what difference does it make to you and I in terms of our following Jesus.
Much. As Jesus said, "salvation is from the Jews." He seeks the lost sheep of Israel first. Paul said salvation is to the Jew first, then the Gentile.
The Remnant in every age has always remained faithful. There is no reason as I've said earlier for God to make a fuss over the remnant. they are already saved. It is the lost he seeks and will bring them to National repentance. ...then the saying "and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced".. will become a meaningful reality.

Blessings in Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

Brothers,
Here is an interesting article for your consideration with regard to Israel:

http://www.therefinersfire.org/replacement_theology.htm

Peace in Him
Bob