Quoting Rick
I see you and Sean have dialog going. I may join in on points raised soon. For now....
I found some notes I used on an FBFF thread on Thessalonians and rearranged them for this post.
The Thessalonican Letters do not support full-preterism, imo. I believe they disprove it.
I've repeated certain texts in a "summary" of Paul's 1 & 2 Thessalonians teaching below.
All texts from NIV.
(1 Thess 2:14, 15)
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men 16in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.
Notice that God's wrath had come in the present tense upon the persecutors of the Thessalonian Christians. But was this their final judgment? No, though they had already been judged as the enemies of God.
Now a section from 2 Thessalonians for context. Note how the very same persecutors Paul mentioned in his first letter had a future judgment and destruction (in bold for emphasis).
(2 Th 1)
3We ought always to thank God for you, brothers, and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love every one of you has for each other is increasing. 4Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
A Summary of Paul's Eschatology Teaching in the Thessalonian Letters, (bold for emphasis)
(2 Th 2:1a)
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him....
(1Th 4)
16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words (1 Th 4:16-18).
(1 Th 5)
1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction (2 Th 2:3).
6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Th 1:6).
on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed (2 Th1:10a)---{the dead in Christ will rise first}---17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:16b, 17)---This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you (2 Th 1:10).
11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing (1 Th 5:11)
At the Day of the Lord/rapture, the dead in Christ will be raised. Living believers will meet them and the Lord in the air. Then Jesus will be marveled at by all who have (ever) believed, not just the Thessalonian Christians. Then he will punish with retribution those who deserve it including the Thessalonian Jews Paul wrote about.
The Thessalonian letters teach one future Day of the Lord/rapture/final judgment: "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...the dead in Christ will rise first...we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air...[when Jesus will be] marveled at and glorified among all those who have believed...[when] God "will pay back trouble to those who trouble you."
Hi Rick,
Does it seem like to you that I am avoiding your questions. I am not and in fact I thought my response to you would show the answers to your questions but I will give it another try. Sorry for the confusion.
Questions for Allyn
Have these events happened?
Yes
When did the Thessalonian believers receive comfort and get relief in the face to face physical presence of Christ?
When He came with His angels
When were they raptured, both the living and dead?
At that same coming with His angels
When did the persecutors in Thessalonica get punished, eternally destroyed, and "shut out from his {Christ's} presence" forever?
God's wrath was certainly upon those persecutors. They truly did receive it in fulness when Jesus came in His parousia. Some times judgement of wrath does not mean an immediate action observable by us humans but with God ist is a done thing.
If they died before the parousia then their eternal judgement came then but if they were alive at the Parousia then it came after their death whenever that happened.
Did Jesus appear with his angels in flaming fire over Thessalonica?
(I looked and haven't been able to find out how much---or even if?---the Jews there were affected by 70AD).
I don't know since we are only told that He would do it.
Has every believer of all time marveled the actual {physical} Lord Jesus Christ himself?
(Paul said this is going to happen---at the very same time Christ judges and destroys God's enemies).
Did Paul say "every believer of all time" or was he speaking of all from the beginning of time up to the 2nd coming?
On what date did all believers of all time glorify Christ, seeing him literally and physically?
How can people who aren't yet Christians do that?
(Remember, Paul describes this as a one time event)....
This was an event promised to the first century believers and the event that all saints from all centuries before were waiting for.
Lastly, have or do you plan to listen to and/or read N.T. Wright on these topics?
Well, you said in an earlier post the following:
Since I think what Wright said applies to this discussion (and it was very helpful for me), would it be okay with you if I posted an excerpt of what he said about the resurrection body?
I guess I was waiting but I would like for you to do that?
Your beginning statement, Rick, concerning Paul's letters to the thessolonians said "The Thessalonican Letters do not support full-preterism" I believe he actually supports Full-Preterism with his letters and here is how.
(1 Thessalonians 1:9-10) 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
(1 Thessalonians 2:19) 19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?
(1 Thessalonians 3:13) so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Paul assures these first century Thessalonians, just as Christ had assured his disciples, that some of them would be alive at the second coming of Christ. Now, lets look at verse 16 specifically
(1 Thessalonians 4:16) 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Let's compare that with the Olivet Discourse
(Mat 24:31 NASB) "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Unless there are multiple trumpet comings, these verses are speaking of the same eventthe gathering of the elect at the second coming of Christ. We have already established that Matthew 24:31 is in regards to the destruction of Israel, and that it would happen in the lifetime of the disciples. Paul is simply validating to the Thessalonians what Christ first voiced to the original Apostles years earlier.
(1 Thessalonians 5:1-11) 1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.
(1 Thessalonians 5:23) 23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.