God is now two in essence, not one?

Post by **_Ely** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:23 am

Steve,

You don't need to speculate about whether Jesus is a man or not. The scriptures make very clear that he is now a man and thus has a human nature. Rather then being 'purposeless', John seems to indicate that this is actually a critical doctrine of the faith in 1 John 4:1-2. Again, this is because if he is not a man, then he is not the Messiah and he is actually a false prophet.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:48 am

The scriptures make very clear that he is now a man and thus has a human nature. Rather

Ely, Jesus is called a man but President Lincoln is still called , "President" but he no longer is still "President."
I'm simply saying that i'm not sure how one can be both "diety" and have a human nature simultaneosly, since Jesus apparently had his "diety" emptied before taking on a human nature which may indicate the two can't coexist.

For example Jesus after the resurrection walked through walls ,disappeared and appeared, said he was flesh and bone rather then flesh and blood.
Do you know any men like that?

Post by **_TK** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:58 am

Steve7150 wrote:

STEVE7150 wrote:The scriptures make very clear that he is now a man and thus has a human nature. Rather

Ely, Jesus is called a man but President Lincoln is still called , "President" but he no longer is still "President."
I'm simply saying that i'm not sure how one can be both "diety" and have a human nature simultaneosly, since Jesus apparently had his "diety" emptied before taking on a human nature which may indicate the two can't coexist.

For example Jesus after the resurrection walked through walls ,disappeared and appeared, said he was flesh and bone rather then flesh and blood.
Do you know any men like that?

well, Superman, but that is kind of what Jesus is now, a superman (no irreverence intended). he is a man, but also God. i would like someone with a greek lexicon to look up the "flesh and bone" verse. i guess i have never noticed that before, and would like to know the actual words used.

Jesus, in my view, is not "kept alive" now ny physical processes (i.e. heart, kidneys, etc etc) just as we will not be kept alive that way in our resurrection bodies.

no wonder why Paul called all of this a "mystery." we just dont know, exactly.

TK

Post by **_Ely** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:04 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:I'm simply saying that i'm not sure how one can be both "diety" and have a human nature simultaneosly, since Jesus apparently had his "diety" emptied before taking on a human nature which may indicate the two can't coexist.

I agree with you here. This is one basic reason that I am a unitarian. I can't see a person can be the indestructible and invisible God and a destructible and visible man at one and the same time. The two natures concept is ingenious, but it raises severalother problems. One of these problems is that it means God is now two in nature, not one. Added to the idea that there are two or three "persons" who are God, one has to ask - in what meaningful sense is the bini/trinitarian God actually one?

STEVE7150 wrote:For example Jesus after the resurrection walked through walls ,disappeared and appeared, said he was flesh and bone rather then flesh and blood.
Do you know any men like that?

No, sadly! But I also don't know of any men who have lived to be 900+ years old like Adam did. This doesn't mean that he wasn't a man.

Post by **_Paidion** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:05 pm

Thanks Paidion,

It's helpful to again see your basic Binitarian understanding of God laid out. But you didn't actually answer the question. Does the Bini/Trinitarian Godhead now consist of two natures or substances? i.e., is God (in the "generic" sense) now two in nature?

Okay, I'll answer it now. I am not at all certain that I am a "Binitarian". To me, this suggests an understanding of God in the same way as Trinitarians understand God, except for believing that there are two Persons in the Godhead rather than three. That is not my position.

In any case, I believe Jesus and His Father are two distinct Individuals. Jesus is Deity in virtue of His having been begotten from the Father at the beginning of time, rather than His being "co-eternal" in the sense of never having had a beginning, and time regressing infinitely into the past.

There is not a "Binitarian Godhead" in the sense that it is a Deity somehow composed of two persons, that is a "Two-in-One Individual. This may be "Binitarian" thought. If so, then I am not Binitarian. Rather, there are two distinct Individuals. "Deity" is just a word to indicate the order of being that the Father and the Son are, just as "humanity" is a word to indicate the order of being that you and I are. There is not one big individual called "humanity" which is a compound of every human being on earth.

But to answer your question specifically,the Father has a single essence, the essence of Deity. He begat a Son with the same essence. This is scriptural. "He is the exact imprint of [God's] essence" Hebrews 1:3.

The Son of God became a human being. I do not think He retained any part of His pre-existence except His identity. "Before Abraham was I am". I don't think He retained even the Deitific essence (but I may be wrong). He became a true human being who never sinned (although He could have) and always listened to His Father and obeyed.. However, I think he regained His Deitific essence after the Father raised Him from the dead.

I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed. John 17:4,5

But He was raised in a human body, albeit a changed body. Paul stated in I Cor 15, that the resurrection body is as different from this present body and a wheat plant differs for the wheat seed which is planted.
Jesus now has a body which He didn't have in his pre-incarnate life.
You have quoted scriptures that state that He is still an "anthrōpos" (human being), but not a human being in the same sense that you and I are human beings. A resurrected human being has been changed. "Behold, brethren, we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

In conclusion, I would say that the Father is of a single essence --- Deity, and that the Son is now Deity again, and also humanity in an altered sense, the same sense in which all of His disciples will become altered humanity also. In being raised from the dead, Jesus became "the first-born of many brethren."

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:30 am

I agree with you here. This is one basic reason that I am a unitarian. I can't see a person can be the indestructible and invisible God and a destructible and visible man at one and the same time. The two natures concept is ingenious

But now Jesus is indestructable and has immortality and has been given all authority in heaven and on earth. He will judge the world and has the keys to hades and the keys to eternal life.
Jesus said "the Father is greater then I." Yet in making such a statement he is implying that he and the Father must have similar power or he could'nt make such a statement. Would any mere man dream of making such a statement?
"Diety" transcends physical boundaries therefore this essence or power which makes God who He is has been freely given to Jesus and apparently he has been given a new name to more precisely describe his new status as Lord of the universe.

Post by **_Ely** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:50 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Jesus said "the Father is greater then I." Yet in making such a statement he is implying that he and the Father must have similar power or he could'nt make such a statement. Would any mere man dream of making such a statement?

Steve, I'm baffled at how you could read this saying from Jesus as a claim of equality with God. If this is the case, can you explain what Jesus was implying when he said "My Father... is greater than all" (John 10:29)?

Post by **_Ely** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:25 pm

Paidion,

Your last post seemed to speak of God in a very scientific manner. It resembled how someone might speak of chemical substances and processes. To me, it's a very alien way of thinking about God.

As I see it, the Scriptures overwhelmingly speaks of God in personal not scientific terms. He is defined by His characteristics (His faithfulness, His compassion, His graciousness, His lovingkindess, His zeal, His justice, etc) , His likes and dislikes, His loves and hates, His relationships with other sentient beings, His response to their obedience and their disobedience, etc.

Can I ask when you think of God, do you primarily think of as you put it, "the substance of deity"/ "Deitific essence"? Or do you primarily think of His personality?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:59 pm

Steve, I'm baffled at how you could read this saying from Jesus as a claim of equality with God. If this is the case, can you explain what Jesus was implying when he said "My Father... is greater than all" (John 10:29)?

I said a man would never even dream of saying this, it would be insane but a "diety" such as Christ would say this to point out that ALTHOUGH Christ is "diety" his Father is in fact greater then he.
That's what he is pointing out by even comparing himself to his Father "My Father is greater then i."
Would you say "God is greater then i?" Of course not but Christ had to say that because apparently it was'nt clear.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 6:01 pm

Can I ask when you think of God, do you primarily think of as you put it, "the substance of deity"/ "Deitific essence"? Or do you primarily think of His personality?

Because of the nature of the title of this thread, inquiring about the essence of God (whatever was meant by "God" in that title), I had to discuss the way in which Christ was of the same essence of His Father, and how in addition, He became fully man.

Your present question seems to concern a different subject. However, I don't mind answering it.

I usually think of the Father as possessing the personal characteristics that you mention. I also think of the Son of God in the same way, as He has identical characteristics. (He who has seen me has seen the Father).

I don't think of the generic term "God" (or better "Deity") as having personal qualities, but rather as a term used to describe the order of being to which the Father and the Son belong. In the same way I don't think of "humanity" as having a set of personal characteristics, only the individuals who make up humanity have personal characteristics.