God's Foreknowledge

Post by **_Derek** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:22 am

Mark,

You said:

Time is like an “eternal now” for God.
For us it is past, present and future.
That means that everything that happens in time operates according to how God creates it.
Therefore God is not subject to time, creation or any concept related therein.

I went digging for your response to C.S. Lewis' idea that TK mentioned, and indeed, you appear to be contradicting yourself.

Quote:<b>TK said:</b>
CS Lewis believed that God is "outside" our time stream, and therefore time does not progress on a timeline for Him like it does for us. To us, there is a past, present (which doesnt last very long) and a future. To God, everything is "now" for lack of a better word. so its not so much that he knows we will do something, he simply sees us doing it. i think this approach deals with the free will argument, and explains foreknowledge at the same time.
<b>Mark said:</b>
No it does not, unless we are willing to live with a god who is a mere spectator!, a voyeur of divine proportions. No thanks, the Biblical God is way better, and Him I shall believe, trust and defend, not that He needs my help!

So is He in time or not? Or did you disagree with Lewis simply because He's not on your "team"?

God bless bro,

Post by **_TK** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:36 pm

A quick digression, but it relates to this topic:

a lady from my church went to a Beth Moore conference in cleveland yesterday.

mind you, i have heard beth moore's name hundreds of times but i have never heard her speak nor have i read any of her books. but many people, mostly women i guess, seem to like her a lot.

At any rate, one of Beth's teaching points was that since God is "outside time" he has access to our past, and that therefore he is able to rectify things in our past that are causing difficulties for us today. not change history, mind you, but he is able to reach into the past, so to speak, to heal at the root cause of issues people may be dealing with now.

I have never heard such a thing, and am not sure what to think.

Any of you ever heard anything like this?

TK

Post by **_darin-houston** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:00 pm

At any rate, one of Beth's teaching points was that since God is "outside time" he has access to our past, and that therefore he is able to rectify things in our past that are causing difficulties for us today. not change history, mind you, but he is able to reach into the past, so to speak, to heal at the root cause of issues people may be dealing with now.

I have never heard such a thing, and am not sure what to think.

Any of you ever heard anything like this?

It sounds like extra-biblical feel-good wishful thinking to me -- nothing's impossible for God, but it doesn't sound normative to me. I wish I could pray today that God would help me make different decisions in the past, but if he did so, would I even know about it now in my present?

Post by **_darin-houston** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:03 pm

I have a related question for you -- are Angels outside of time? how about Satan?

Post by **_TK** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:47 pm

To answer you Darin, i am still not 100% convinced that God is outside time; mainly because i cannot conceptualize that. It makes my brain hurt less thinking about it that way; then I dont have to deal with the foreknowledge issues as urgently. maybe i am just lazy.

i would argue, though, that Angels and Satan, and demons, are created beings and therefore IN time. I think.

TK

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:00 pm

I do not see where I have contradicted myself. Help me here.

Mark

Post by **_Derek** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:16 pm

On the one hand you are saying that God being outside of time makes Him a "god who is a mere spectator!, a voyeur of divine proportions." On the other you are saying that He is indeed outside of time. Maybe it's your wording.

Post by **_darin-houston** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:27 pm

My question about the timelessness of Satan and the angels was meant for the whole group, but especially tartanarmy.

Post by **_tartanarmy** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:36 am

On the one hand you are saying that God being outside of time makes Him a "god who is a mere spectator!, a voyeur of divine proportions." On the other you are saying that He is indeed outside of time. Maybe it's your wording.

Derek, I was responding to the idea that God does not actively control all things from an Arminian perspective, hence a mere spectator. I was not affirming that God was “only” outside of time and not actively involved in the unfolding of it.

You are selectively quoting me out of the given context.

No, I have clearly been saying that God is not just outside of time, (something all orthodox Christians have always affirmed, as in distinct from time as a created thing) being that it is a part of His creation and all, but I said that rather than being a mere spectator, He is actively involved in the unfolding of it.

What I am hearing from some of you is that God is constrained in time, subject to it, limited in some way by it, even if by His own choice.

I am saying two things about the sovereignty of God and the nature of time. I am not making contradictory statements.

Why are you guys confusing/denying? the two things that Orthodox Christianity has always taught?

1/ God created time as a separate thing from Himself, otherwise we have Pantheism and
2/ God being outside of time and therefore the “past, present and future are right “now” from His perspective, meaning He as the creator, upholds everything and all things consist by Him.
He is separate and distinct, but nonetheless actively holds it all together.

Nothing contradictory in any of that. Scripture teaches it.

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Col 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

See also Heb 1:3

Mark

Post by **_darin-houston** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:57 am

Why are you guys confusing/denying? the two things that Orthodox Christianity has always taught?

1/ God created time as a separate thing from Himself, otherwise we have Pantheism and
2/ God being outside of time and therefore the “past, present and future are right “now” from His perspective, meaning He as the creator, upholds everything and all things consist by Him.
He is separate and distinct, but nonetheless actively holds it all together.

Nothing contradictory in any of that. Scripture teaches it.

Col 1:16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;
Col 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Why does pantheism result from God being within time? Time is just a construct to describe a reality -- if you insist that all aspects of reality are created, then you're also potentially denying the personhood and other aspects of God's existence pre-creation. If God is "real," then He must be within some aspect of reality. The Colossians response sort of begs the question -- I grant you that all things were created by Him, but that raises the question of whether time is a "thing" to be created or an aspect of reality that God enjoyed pre-creation.

I still ask your opinion as to whether Angels and Satan are within time considering the implications to the creation of time.