All to the glory of God!

[Guest]

Well...

I liked this one. I thought about it all day:
Quote:
Bob, your bringing in Paul's conversion is a great example of regeneration preceding faith, as well as Total depravity, Unconditional election, and Irresistible grace.

Arminians I have spoken to, never deal head on with his conversion, and many will flat out twist the whole event to somehow bring in Paul's so called free will choice in salvation.

They seem to forget that we Calvinists teach that man has a will, and that so called “free” will is the “fallen” will heading upon the road to an eternal Damascus, unless, like Paul, we are knocked off our horse and in our blindness are lead and become healed.

Yes, the point being that Paul was headed one way, just like all unbelievers, and then God deals with him. Knocks him off his horse, blinds him and leads him to obedience through faith.
The first part is the regeneration part that Calvinists are always on about. The end part is the result of the first part. Arminians have it back to front.

Same with Lydia having her heart opened by the Lord in Acts.

This one amazed me because I didn't know Arminians were not saved:
Quote:
My hearts prayer to God, is that my bretheren, called Arminians might be saved, for they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

I do not believe that all Arminians are not saved, nor even most of them. If you are carefully reading me you will see me often mention the inconsistency in which most Arminians live with their theology.
It is the consistent ones I fear for. That is, real Arminians.

I consider strong Open Theists to be unsaved and Arminians who are repulsed by the idea that God’s grace alone is the “sole” cause of salvation

This one made me laugh (in a good way:)
Quote:
Quote:
I would now like for you to provide one quote from anyone who lived before Augustine and who believed the Calvinists doctrine of sovereignty and free will.


Is this a trick question? Laughing

How about the Apostle Paul and maybe Job?
Do you want me to cite them?

Mark

Yes, it gets to the heart of the Calvinist foundation I think.

Interesting:
Quote:
It does not follow that Calvinism leads to prayer being a waste of time.
Calvinism teaches that God has decreed that He works through means, so that in His meticulous control, prayer is a means that God predestines, even our struggling in prayer is a means God has ordained for His purposes.

No, Calvinism does not lead to prayer being a waste of time at all, quite the contrary!
How exciting to know that our prayers have been ordained by God and can be a means of very great significance!

What about the Non Calvinists prayer? Have you ever prayed that the Lord would soften or change someones heart? Ever?

If you have, then you are a closet Calvinist!

True enough.
Thank God for inconsistent Arminians at the end of the day.

I thought this one was sad:
Quote:
If those doctrines taught in Calvinist/Reformed Theology were untrue, then I am the most miserable of men, without hope, and without assurance and ultimately one seriously deluded individual.

If Arminian Theology was all that I had, and I actually believed in free will (1), prevenient grace (2), deciding for Jesus (3) etc, then I would in good conscience depart from that faith and would not know where I would finally end up.
Perhaps an Atheist or some kind of Cult leader or something! If not, maybe a Gangster or a hired hit man!

But that’s just me.
Maybe other Calvinists will tell you a different story, I do not really know.

Well, again, if I were to conclude that I made some kind of free will decision to accept Christ into my heart, then I am of all men, miserable. I stand by that statement 100%
My conversion was much more like Paul’s and Lydia’s, or John Newton, Spurgeon and Bunyan to mention a mere few.

I went to an extreme logical outcome based upon my nature prior to regeneration and God knocking me off my horse. I am just being consistent with what I believe.

I never got myself into Christ, and had He left me be, I may have ended up as I stated above. But I did not say other Calvinists would feel that way. Perhaps before they were brought to faith in Christ they were "morally" better than me at the human level, or as I like to call it, the horizontal level. Which in the end before a Holy God is like one worm comparing itself to another worm, but both are still worms!

Diagonally, before God. That is what matters in the end. We are either "In Christ" or we are "In Adam".
How do we get "into Christ"?

That is what we are arguing here in all of these threads. Pretty important question, eh?

Mark

There were more, but I'm running out of time

Michelle

Thanks for the comments. Glad to at least know that someone is attempting to read what I am saying. Encouraging.
Not many people listen to me these days.

I mean, read all of what Haas has been posting, Mainly scriptures with great comments, and no one has a response, no one. Go and read them for yourself.

When I see that happening, it speaks volumes to me personally.
Most professing Christians could not even begin to be interested in getting below surface level interaction, sadly.

Mark

[Guest]

How John Calvin dealt with heretics:

The burning of Michael Servetus

Had one visited the town of Geneva on the 27th of October 1553, one would have been witness of that tragic scene which William Osler describes so poignantly and dramatically:

“…Shortly after twelve o’clock, a procession started from the town-hall of Geneva-the chief magistrates of the city, the clergy in their robes, the Lieutenant Criminel and other officers on horseback, a guard of mounted archers, the citizens, with a motley crowd of followers, and in their midst, with arms bound, in shabby, dirty clothes, walked a man of middle age, whose intellectual face bore the marks of long suffering. Passing along the rue St. Antoine through the gate of the same name, the cortege took its way towards the Golgotha of the city. Once outside the walls a superb sight broke on their view: in the distance the blue waters and enchanting shores of Lake Geneva, to the west and north the immense amphitheater of the Jura, with its snow-capped mountains, and to the south and west the lovely valley of the Rhone; but we may well think that few eyes were turned away from the central figure of that sad procession. By his side, in earnest entreaty, walked the aged pastor, Farel, who had devoted a long and useful life to the service of his fellow citizens. Mounting the hill, the field of Champel was reached, and here on sight eminence was the fateful stake, with dangling chains and heaping bundles of faggots. At this sight the poor victim prostrated himself on the ground in prayer. In reply to the exhortation of the clergyman for a specific confession of faith, there was the cry, ‘Misericordia, misericordia! Jesu, thou Son of the eternal God, have compassion upon me!’ Bound to the stake by the iron chains, with a chaplet of straw and green twigs covered with sulphur on his head, with long dark face, it is said that he looked like the Christ in whose name he was bound. Around his waist were tied a large bundle of manuscript and a thick octavo printed book. The torch was applied, and as the flames spread to the straw and sulphur and flashed in his eyes, there was a piercing cry that struck terror into the hearts of the bystanders. The faggots were green, the burning was slow, and it was long before in a last agony he cried again, ‘Jesu, thou Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me!’ Thus died in his forty-fourth year, Michael Servetus Villanovanus, physician, physiologist, and heretic. Strange, is it not, that could he have cried, ‘Jesu, thou Eternal Son of God!’ even at this last moment, the chains would have been unwound, the chaplet removed, and the faggots scattered; but he remained faithful unto death to what he believed was the Truth as revealed in the Bible.”

Robin

[Guest]

bighaasdog, I'm not sure exactly what you think Piper is implying or what Piper thinks he is implying, but I can assure you that I agree with his statement: "If grace did not awaken us to grace, we would sleep through the revolution."

Absolute Grace: the unmerited favor of God in sending His Son Jesus as the "Annointed One" to reconcile God and men through His death and resurrection.

Enlightening Grace: the unmerited favor of God in sending His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit to convict the world concerning righteousness, sin, and judgment; the Word of God that testifies to truth: Christ's righteousness, man's sinfulness, judgment, God's love, etc.; nature that displays the majesty of God--His eternal power and divine nature.

So I might write Piper's statment more formally as: If Enlightening Grace did not awaken us to Absolute Grace, we would sleep through the revolution.

If you think Piper is trying to imply something else, then spell it out and we'll see if Scripture is in agreement.

Lewis

[Guest]

Lewis wrote:

bighaasdog, I'm not sure exactly what you think Piper is implying or what Piper thinks he is implying, but I can assure you that I agree with his statement: "If grace did not awaken us to grace, we would sleep through the revolution."

Lewis,

I think Piper is pretty direct in his dealings with the text here (II Chronicles 30). He points out that Judah (and the other tribes that were obedient) responded in obedience because "God gave them a heart to do what he had commanded." So Piper would say (and does) that the ultimate reason for obedience was that God granted Judah with the heart (ability) to be obedient.

Let's look at another example where God did not grant sinners the "heart to do what he had commanded."

I Samuel 2:22-25
22 Now Eli was very old, and he kept hearing all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay women who were serving at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 23 And he said to them, "Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. 24 No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the LORD spreading abroad. If someone sins against man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him? But they would not listen to the voice of their father," for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death. [emphasis mine]

Let's look at these two situations and see who is ultimately sovereign over each situation (even the obedience and disobedience of man).

From 2 Chronicles 30:6b, 12
Verse 6: “O, sons of Israel, return to the LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, that He may return to those of you who escaped and are left from the hand of the kings of Assyria.”

Verse 12
The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD.

God is sovereign in the obedience of Judah to "give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD."

Now let's look at the disobedience of Eli's sons again.

24 No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the LORD spreading abroad. If someone sins against man, God will mediate for him, but if someone sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him? But they would not listen to the voice of their father," for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death. [emphasis mine]

The Scripture explicitly teaches that Eli's sons wouldn't listen to their father because "It was the will of the LORD to put them to death."

Lewis wrote:

If you think Piper is trying to imply something else, then spell it out and we'll see if Scripture is in agreement.

I think Piper would say that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. From beginning to the end. Everything is grace for "Salvation belongs to the LORD."(Jonah 2:9b)

Let's apply this to some commands for people to repent in the New Testament.

Jesus was clear with this command:

Matthew 4:17
From that time Jesus began to preach, saying; "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Paul was clear in repeating this command in Acts 17:30-31
30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

This is a clear command from the Lord of the universe for man to repent. Does that mean they could do so without God's sovereign grace (could Judah obey without God giving them a heart of obedience?)?


John 6:25-71
25 When they found him on the other side of the sea, they said to him, “Rabbi, when did you come here?” 26 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. 27 Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” 30 So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see and believe you? What work do you perform? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.”
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.[emphasis mine] 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”[emphasis mine]
41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.[emphasis mine] 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”[emphasis mine] 66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” 71 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

Lewis, I would be interested in your interaction with II Chronicles 30 and I Samuel 2 in light of God’s ultimate sovereignty in each situation. And then interaction with God’s command that sinners repent with the truth that Jesus teaches in John 6 (ie. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. And 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. And 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”).


May God lavish you richly with His grace,
Haas

[Guest]

Robin-

Quick question for you on John Calvin. Who was a worse sinner? King David (liar, adulterer, murderer), Paul (persecuter of Christians), or John Calvin?

Oh yeah, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Think about it.

Blessings in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

bighaasdog,

Actually, I think he was very non-committal in his conclusion. He was certainly willing to say that God “enables them to meet the condition”. Well, anyone holding to an orthodox faith believes that God enables them. The question is how does He enable them. Does He simply impose His will upon theirs or does He use 1) powerful convictions of judgment and about the zeal of God for His people, 2) the fear of God, 3) promises of blessings if they obey, and 4) God-wrought circumstances that move their hearts toward obedience?

He also implies that God gives them what they need in order to meet the command. Does giving them what they need imply imposition of His will again or giving them one or all of the four things cited above to move their hearts toward obedience?

Of course, I know what he is implying I just wish that he had stated it blatantly: “This passage is saying that, in order to obtain obedience from Judah, God decrees their obedience and so brings it about by giving them a heart that will do His bidding.”

My problem with his interpretation is that it goes against the testimony of almost every other example of when the Israelites repent and turn to God. These other passages don’t speak of the “hand of God” or the “hand of the LORD” causing people to be obedient. Piper expects us to take this example and extrapolate that this was what was really happening behind the scenes in similar situation that we encounter in the Bible. I don’t think so.

Now, let’s get to the text at hand, but first let’s go back to 2 Chronicles 29 and see what’s been happening.

• 1) Hezekiah becomes king of Judah at age 25. (2 Chronicles 29:1)
  
  2) Hezekiah decides to consecrate the temple; so he calls the priests and Levites to get the job done. They do. (2 Chronicles 29:18 )
  
  3) Hezekiah restores temple worship. What do they do?
  
  • a. seven bulls, seven rams, seven lambs were slaughtered and blood sprinkled on the altar for cleansing
    b. seven male goats were slaughtered to atone for all Israel
    c. the worship team (the Levites) were assembled with cymbals, harps, and lyres
    d. burnt offerings began while singers sang and musicians played
    e. all who were present bowed down and worshiped
    f. “the assembly brought sacrifices and thank offerings and all who were willing brought burnt offerings”

There is a lot going on here! The number of burn offerings was 70 bulls, 100 rams, and 200 male lambs. The total number of animals consecrated as sacrifices were 600 bulls and 3,000 sheep. In other words, the priests had a lot to do and there were so few; so the Levites helped them. Temple worship had been reestablished. Now, the concluding statement: in several translations, 2 Chronicles 29:36 reads,

NASB

Then Hezekiah and all the people rejoiced over what God had prepared for the people, because the thing came about suddenly.

NKJV

Then Hezekiah and all the people rejoiced that God had prepared the people, since the events took place so suddenly.

YLT

and rejoice doth Hezekiah and all the people, because of God's giving preparation to the people, for the thing hath been suddenly.

NIV

And Hezekiah and all the people rejoiced because of what God had done for the people, for everything had been accomplished so quickly.

So the people rejoiced because God had enabled them to complete thousands of sacrifices, to get the Levites set up with their instruments and to worship God—in a relatively short time. Notice that the emphasis is on how amazingly efficient the priesthood had been at restoring temple worship by completing all the necessary rituals; and, of course, they give all credit to God. While it is not clear why the priesthood responded so quickly (non-Calvinists assume it to be the powerful conviction of God and Calvinists will assume it’s by God’s decree), it is clear that God gave them a spirit of unity in that the Levites helped the priests complete the extensive sacrificing. Notice that the emphasis is on God being able to miraculously bring about the things that please Him—the restoration of temple worship; it is not on any decretive will that causes the priests to act according to that will by some prescribed means.

All right, I think we’re ready to get into chapter 30. What’s going on here? Well, Hezekiah decides that since they missed the Passover on the 14th day of the first month, they will have it on the 14th day of the second month. This wasn’t without precedent (see Numbers 9:6-12) and you should read this to understand why it was necessary to have Passover at this time. But the point is that they don’t have much time as it is. They certainly have less than a month (30 days) and in that time they need to send letters out into all of Israel and Judah, get things ready for the Passover, and expect hoards of people to somehow get their act together and make the trip to Jerusalem. Wow! Good luck! Fortunately, they don’t need good look. As we just saw in the previous chapter, God is able to bring about the things that please Him. This is another case where a spirit of unity must prevail—there’s just too short of time! And hence we come to the verses in question. 2 Chronicles 30:10-13 read,

NASB

So the couriers passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, and as far as Zebulun, but they laughed them to scorn and mocked them. Nevertheless some men of Asher, Manasseh and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. The hand of God was also on Judah to give them one heart to do what the king and the princes commanded by the word of the LORD. Now many people were gathered at Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the second month, a very large assembly.

NKJV

So the runners passed from city to city through the country of Ephraim and Manasseh, as far as Zebulun; but they laughed at them and mocked them. Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem. Also the hand of God was on Judah to give them singleness of heart to obey the command of the king and the leaders, at the word of the LORD. Now many people, a very great assembly, gathered at Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the second month.

YLT

And the runners are passing over from city to city, in the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, even unto Zebulun: and they are laughing at them, and mocking at them, only, certain from Asher, and Manasseh, and from Zebulun, have been humbled, and come in to Jerusalem. Also, in Judah hath the hand of God been to give to them one heart to do the command of the king and of the heads, in the matter of Jehovah; and much people are gathered to Jerusalem, to make the feast of unleavened things in the second month -- a mighty assembly for multitude.

NIV

The couriers went from town to town in Ephraim and Manasseh, as far as Zebulun, but the people scorned and ridiculed them. Nevertheless, some men of Asher, Manasseh and Zebulun humbled themselves and went to Jerusalem. Also in Judah the hand of God was on the people to give them unity of mind to carry out what the king and his officials had ordered, following the word of the LORD. A very large crowd of people assembled in Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the second month.

Is this starting to make sense now? Yes. We again see God intervening to bring about a spirit of unity in following what the king had ordered: to come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover. This verse is focusing on unity in order that Passover can actually occur on the 14th of the second month; it is not focusing on God decreeing that the people come to Jerusalem by His replacing each one of their hearts with one that does what God has decreed. It is ONE heart, meaning unity, which is exactly what we see in the previous chapter. Context.

I think it is clear that Piper’s explanation really misses the mark. He doesn’t seem to understand what is going on in this story. Instead, he divorces it from its historical setting and cherry-picks verses that he thinks are implying what he is talking about. This story is about the power of God to bring about events in His timing and in its entirety the focus remains on 1) God giving the people a spirit of unity and 2) God enabling people to efficiently do the tasks that need to be completed in the allotted time. The entirety of this story leads no one to believe that it is making a statement about God decreeing this and that and then giving each one a heart that obeys the king. These verses are about God being able to quickly and effectively accomplish something that pleases Him (restoration of temple worship and the Passover)—something that could never have been achieved by human ability alone. Calvinists and non-Calvinists can speculate as to what is going on behind the scenes in individuals lives, but the intent of this narrative is not to speak about such things.

Lewis

[Guest]

Lewis,

Here is a definition of God's decretive will:

Decrees, of God
The Decrees of God is His eternal purpose, according to His will, whereby He has foreordained whatever comes to pass. His Decrees do not negate the responsibility of people for their sins nor does it mean that God is responsible for sin. But, it necessarily is true that God knows all things actual as well as potential, and that that which exists, exists due to His creative effort. It also follows that God has eternally known all events that have occurred, are occurring, and will occur in this creation including the fall, redemption, glorification, etc. Yet, God is not the one responsible for the sin in the world but has decreed, by His permission, that it be allowed to exist. Isaiah 46:9-10 says, "Remember the former things long past, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, 10Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure."
God's efficacious decrees are those decrees which God has purposed and determined to occur, i.e., Acts 2:23 "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." God's permissive decrees are those decrees where He permits things to occur such as evil.

found here: http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_c-d. ... 20of%20God

Do you believe that God has a decretive will? If so, how would you define and apply it?

Also, looking forward to your response on the other Scriptures (I Samuel and John 6).


Blessings in Christ,

Haas

[Guest]

When the whole Servetus thing is thrown into the mix, we have reached the bottom of the barrel sadly.
I say this simply because the story about what went on there is seldom ever told properly.
It is one of those grenades that are launched when arguments no longer apply.
Besides being a logical fallacy against the truth of Calvinism, it sadly is a historical event again misrepresented.

I wont go into the whole Servetus thing here, but if you are really interested in getting a perspective upon it, then contact me and I will point you to solid references that have dealt with the issue, rather than the Dave Hunt version.

Mr Gregg, I am with you. It would be better to say nothing, if our desire is not to honour Christ and truth.

Mark

[Guest]

Haas,

Let’s get to the 1 Samuel 2 passage first. What is going on here? The first thing to note is that there is no indication that Eli is negligent in his duties as priest nor does he despises the offering of the LORD, as his sons do. So we can clearly see that Eli’s sons should have certainly known better having grown up around Eli and observing Eli performing his priestly duties before God. In other words, there was continuous testimony about God and his ordinances, and yet they showed no reverence for God and despised the offering of the LORD. There is no excuse for this behavior. God had indeed been gracious to them in allowing them to profane His Statutes for so long. They certainly should have known better because of the environment they grew up in, but they refused what they knew to be right and chose to satisfy their carnal appetites. How long should God extend mercy to those who reject His statutes? We know that God is indeed gracious and merciful, but how long will such a God endure this wickedness.

Even though Eli rebukes his sons in 1 Samuel 2:22-25, we know that they had been practicing their wickedness for some time. Not only that, but it is fairly clear that Eli did know what was going on with his boys, but chose not too address the matter until there was an outcry by the people. For 1 Samuel 2:29 reads, “Why do you kick at My sacrifice and at My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling, and honor your sons above Me, by making yourselves fat with the choicest of every offering of My people Israel?” Also, 1 Samuel 3:13 reads, "For I have told him [Eli] that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them.” So we see that his sons have been practicing wickedness for some time and even without Eli’s rebuke should certainly have been convicted of their wickedness and repented. They did not; so God withdrew His mercy and eventually put them to death. And this is of course what 1 Samuel 2:25 is referring to: “But they would not listen to the voice of their father, for the LORD desired to put them to death.” They didn’t honor God even though everything around them was testifying to them that they were doing wickedness; they chose to continue in wickedness. God was patient in mercy but out of the counsel of his will withdrew His mercy and had them put to death.

That God sovereignly gives mercy and withdraws His mercy is abundantly clear from Scripture. I’m not sure anyone would disagree with this. This passage on Eli’s sons is about Eli’s sons despising the things of God, not turning away from their wickedness even though the whole environment they lived in was condemning their wicked practice, and being put to death because God no longer would extend to them mercy. They had no excuse. This is exactly what Romans 1:18-32 is speaking of.

I think the Calvinist interpretation of this passage must be something like this (you can correct me if I’m wrong): Eli’s sons were killed and did not repent because God did not will them to repent. Not only did they not repent when Eli rebuked them, but they never even had the option to repent at any time in their disobedience because it was according to God’s will that they should not repent and die for their wickedness. I’m not sure how this leaves them without excuse as Romans 1 suggests, but we can leave that as another topic of discussion.

The non-Calvinist interpretation would go something like this: God, being rich in mercy, gave them amply opportunity to repent and turn from their wickedness even though they were profaning His statutes. But they refused to repent; instead, they sought to gratify their carnal appetite. Because of this God withdrew His mercy and had them killed. They were truly without excuse as Romans 1 details.

Lewis

[Guest]

Robin-

Quick question for you on John Calvin. Who was a worse sinner? King David (liar, adulterer, murderer), Paul (persecuter of Christians), or John Calvin?

Oh yeah, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Think about it.

Blessings in Christ,

Haas

I make no assumptions about John Calvin's eternal security, except this; he was a professing Christian, that fell short in many ways. But who doesn't? My post was center around the theme of heretics, and this stain on Orthodox Christianity.

Personally, I think the naming of heretics should be done with much care. Men like Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Marcion, certainly fall into this category. Men like Michael Servetus, and Piadion, certainly not.

Robin