God is now two in essence, not one?

Post by **_Ely** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:27 pm

I was thinking, if the second person of the Godhead took on a human nature - then is it not the case that the Bi/Triune God is no longer one in essence/substance, but is is actually two in essence/substance - divine and human?

Shalom
Ely

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:07 pm

I was thinking, if the second person of the Godhead took on a human nature - then is it not the case that the Bi/Triune God is no longer one in essence/substance, but is is actually two in essence/substance - divine and human?

Jesus was called the God/man but in a resurrected glorified body is he still a man?
He asked his Father to give him back the glory he had before the world began yet he was'nt human prior to his incarnation.

Post by **_Ely** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:55 am

STEVE7150 wrote:Jesus was called the God/man but in a resurrected glorified body is he still a man?
He asked his Father to give him back the glory he had before the world began yet he was'nt human prior to his incarnation.

Jesus most certainly is a man:

"[The God] has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:33

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” Revelation 22:16

If he's not now a man, then he is not a descendant of David and Abraham and is thus not the Messiah.

Shalom
Ely

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:05 am

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.” Revelation 22:16

OK Ely, good point but does he still have the human nature part of him since he is glorified and in an imperishable body?
Also if he is "the bright and morning star" and he will be given a new name that no one knows , will his new name be Lucifer which means "bright and morning star?"

Post by **_Ely** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:21 am

STEVE7150 wrote:OK Ely, good point but does he still have the human nature part of him since he is glorified and in an imperishable body?

It seems to me that being a human necessitates being human in nature - just like being God necessitates being God in nature. Being a dog necessitates being a dog in nature. etc.

STEVE7150 wrote:Also if he is "the bright and morning star" and he will be given a new name that no one knows , will his new name be Lucifer which means "bright and morning star?"

Not sure about that to be honest. Though I remember reading that Lucifer is most likely not a good transation of the Hebrew "Haylel." These articles may be of interest to you on this issue: http://www.kjv-only.com/isa14_12.html

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:14 am

Jesus most certainly is a man:

"[The God] has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising him from the dead.” Acts 17:33

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5"

I would not argue with your affirmation that Jesus is human.

However, I wonder how you reconcile that with the following passages:

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:18

Now I suppose you could claim that "the Lord" does not refer to Christ, but the Father. I think the context shows that it refers to Christ.

In any case, how would you understand the following in light of your belief that Jesus is not deity:

1 Corinthians 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Post by **_Ely** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:33 pm

Paidion,

Before moving onto those texts, could I maybe get your take on the idea that God is now two in essence, not one?

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:09 pm

The answer to that, Ely, depends entirely on what you mean by "God".

If you are using the term "God" in the sense of "The Father", that is "the only true God", as Jesus addressed Him, then the answer is "no". The Father didn't become a human being.

If you are using the term "God" in a generic sense, referring not to an Individual but to Deity, then I affirm that Jesus is "God" in this sense, since He was begotten at the beginning of time as the Son of God, the "only-begotten God" [John 1:18] ----another Divine One exactly like the Father. Indeed, He was the only begotten Son of God. God begat no other sons. He was also the only begotten God. The Father of all was unbegotten.

However, this Divine Son of God became a human being, died, and God the Father raised Him from the dead, "the first-born among many brethren". In becoming human, He divested Himself of all of His divine attributes except that He retained His identity as the Son of God. Therefore He was still Deity, only without the Divine attributes.

I am not 100% sure, but I think He has regained those attributes in His resurrection. However, I am sure that He is still Deity. That, He has never lost. So, I think He is presently both human and Divine. His Divine nature is identical to that of the Father --- therefore only one essence. His human nature is retained since He still has a human body. Perhaps He has also retained some human characteristics, but has achieved perfection, through the Father. But human characteristics as they were meant to be. No fallen nature. He was the second Adam. He never disobeyed the Father in any way. He is the pioneer of our salvation. The second Adam, through His relationship to the Father proved what would have been possible in the area of righteousness for Adam and Eve, had they chosen not to disobey.

Post by **_Ely** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:53 am

Thanks Paidion,

It's helpful to again see your basic Binitarian understanding of God laid out. But you didn't actually answer the question. Does the Bini/Trinitarian Godhead now consist of two natures or substances? i.e., is God (in the "generic" sense) now two in nature?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:04 am

Does the Bini/Trinitarian Godhead now consist of two natures or substances? i.e., is God (in the "generic" sense) now two in nature?

Admittedly i'm speculating but i think that since Jesus took on our human nature that means he did not have it prior to the incarnation when he was "the Word."
Since Phil 2.7 indicates he emptied his "diety" while he was a man i would think it was given back to him at his resurrection which would seem to make the retaining of his human nature purposeless. Not only purposeless but i'm not sure "diety" can simultaneosly have two natures, it seems contradictory.