Not your own doing. It is the gift of God.
YES i agree I have the ability to believe and trust in things! But that isnt faith, the ability to believe or trust in something isnt Faith. DOING SO (believing and trusting) is faith. NOT the ability to. DOING IT!
So believing is not faith? But again, you missed the point. You have the gift of faith/trust - correct? Now when you sin are you exercising that gift?
When God said that He wanted to gather Israel, was He being truthful? And when He said that He did all He could to produce good fruit in Israel - was He being truthful?
Let me ask you this? DO you think God isnt powerful enough to have produced good fruit in Israel? If God wanted to ultimately "gather" Israel do think He could be powerful enough to make that happen? (i.e. Is God Omnipotent?)
Again, you avoided the question. When God said that He wanted to gather Israel, and did all that He could to produce good fruit - was He being truthful - it's a yes or no answer.
So believing is not faith? But again, you missed the point. You have the gift of faith/trust - correct? Now when you sin are you exercising that gift?
When God said that He wanted to gather Israel, was He being truthful? And when He said that He did all He could to produce good fruit in Israel - was He being truthful?
Let me ask you this? DO you think God isnt powerful enough to have produced good fruit in Israel? If God wanted to ultimately "gather" Israel do think He could be powerful enough to make that happen? (i.e. Is God Omnipotent?)
Again, you avoided the question. When God said that He wanted to gather Israel, and did all that He could to produce good fruit - was He being truthful - it's a yes or no answer.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"He who learns must suffer.Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." Aeschylus
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I didnt avoid the question, i asked another one in hopes of coming back to your ? Mine would have to be answered first.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hehe, nice dodge. Come on it's a simple question. And I did ask first after all... Play nice...'Iwavvnv644 wrote:I didnt avoid the question, i asked another one in hopes of coming back to your ? Mine would have to be answered first.

Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"He who learns must suffer.Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." Aeschylus
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- Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:30 am
- Location: Chicago, IL
seriously i think if u answer mine first it would better answer yours
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Ok, God is all powerful, but though He could, He does not choose to force men to love and obey Him. Such forced love and obedience would probably have no value to Him. Just as such a forced love and obedience would have no value to us in our daily relationships.'Iwavvnv644 wrote:seriously i think if u answer mine first it would better answer yours
Your turn:
When God said that He wanted to gather Israel, and did all that He could to produce good fruit - was He being truthful.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"He who learns must suffer.Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." Aeschylus
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Hi Iwavv,
You said
Every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. It means that the Holy Spirit can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.
If this is true, then why isn’t everyone saved?
You say
In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did.
Notice that verse 54 reads “When they heard these things they were cut to the heart”
The Holy Spirit takes the Word of God and wields it to deal with the heart of the sinner, initiates and empowers the sinner to repent and believe. Their response determines whether the word of the cross and the gospel of salvation is foolishness to them, or the power of God unto salvation. When Peter proclaimed the message of the cross to the house of Israel, we see in Acts 2:37 that “when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “men and brethren, what shall we do?” First, we want to notice that they were cut to the heart, as was the Jewish leaders. Both, were cut to the heart. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, so was He not active in concicting the Jewish leaders? It appears that both instances, two groups of people were cut to heart, and no Scripture indicates that one was with a greature measure than others.
Second, we see that they asked “what shall we do”. This is similar to the Philipian Jailer in Acts 16:30 asked “what must I do to be saved”
At this point, neither was saved. When the jailer asked what he must do to be saved, he was obviously not yet under the influence of God’s irresistible grace, or else he would already have been regenerate and would have already received the sovereign gifts of faith and repentance. Thus he was still totally depraved, always using his freedom to resist God. (That being so, we must wonder why a totally depraved person is sincerely asking what he must do to be saved. If it is because this totally depraved person is under conviction from God, it must be that God is bestowing “resistible grace” rather than “irresistible grace.” Yet the totally depraved sinner, will always use his freedom to resist God, so he would never sincerely seek to be saved. This jailer, however, was obviously sincerely seeking.) Paul told the jailer to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Peter told to “repent,…for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (this happens to be one of many Scriptures that shows repentance precedes salvation.) So Can a sinner have a new heart, but not the Spirit?
You said
God gives many entreaties and promptings which are resisted. In fact the whole history of Israel in the Old Testament is one protracted story of resistance, as the parable of the wicked tenants shows (Matthew 21:33-43; cf. Romans 10:21).
What I don’t understand is if God has His secret will decreed to ordain some to hell by passing over them and not effectually calling them, why does He show emotional sorrow over their sin and rebellion? Moreover, why does God plead with people to repent if they are incapable of doing so by His sovereign decree?
Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever! (Deut. 5:29).
But My people did not listen to My voice; and Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies, and turn My hand against their adversaries (Ps. 18:11-14). It’s interesting to notice that He said His people did not listen to His voice. They weren’t made alive yet. They were “dead in their trespasses”.
Say to them, “As I live!” declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?” (Ezek. 33:11)
Matt . 23:37 shows Jesus weeping over Jerusalem’s children for not coming to Him.
Rom. 9:23 says God endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. One thing to notice here is that the vessels of mercy were prepared beforehand, but it doesn’t say this is so with the vessels of wrath.
2 Pet. 3:9 shows him not willing that any perish but that all comes to repentance.
So in these instances, if He has decreed some to hell, why is He weeping and showing emotional sorrow for them. Is he pretending ? Or is He expressing His heart for them sincerely? Either way, it doesn't look good for Reformed theology.
Note:God is Omniscient, and knows everything that could ever happen.
Well got to go, I have copied your post to Microsoft works, and plan to share more of it to you on what I noticed. Be blessed.
SoaringEagle
You said
Every influence of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted. It means that the Holy Spirit can overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible.
If this is true, then why isn’t everyone saved?
You say
In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did.
Notice that verse 54 reads “When they heard these things they were cut to the heart”
The Holy Spirit takes the Word of God and wields it to deal with the heart of the sinner, initiates and empowers the sinner to repent and believe. Their response determines whether the word of the cross and the gospel of salvation is foolishness to them, or the power of God unto salvation. When Peter proclaimed the message of the cross to the house of Israel, we see in Acts 2:37 that “when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “men and brethren, what shall we do?” First, we want to notice that they were cut to the heart, as was the Jewish leaders. Both, were cut to the heart. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, so was He not active in concicting the Jewish leaders? It appears that both instances, two groups of people were cut to heart, and no Scripture indicates that one was with a greature measure than others.
Second, we see that they asked “what shall we do”. This is similar to the Philipian Jailer in Acts 16:30 asked “what must I do to be saved”
At this point, neither was saved. When the jailer asked what he must do to be saved, he was obviously not yet under the influence of God’s irresistible grace, or else he would already have been regenerate and would have already received the sovereign gifts of faith and repentance. Thus he was still totally depraved, always using his freedom to resist God. (That being so, we must wonder why a totally depraved person is sincerely asking what he must do to be saved. If it is because this totally depraved person is under conviction from God, it must be that God is bestowing “resistible grace” rather than “irresistible grace.” Yet the totally depraved sinner, will always use his freedom to resist God, so he would never sincerely seek to be saved. This jailer, however, was obviously sincerely seeking.) Paul told the jailer to Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Peter told to “repent,…for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (this happens to be one of many Scriptures that shows repentance precedes salvation.) So Can a sinner have a new heart, but not the Spirit?
You said
God gives many entreaties and promptings which are resisted. In fact the whole history of Israel in the Old Testament is one protracted story of resistance, as the parable of the wicked tenants shows (Matthew 21:33-43; cf. Romans 10:21).
What I don’t understand is if God has His secret will decreed to ordain some to hell by passing over them and not effectually calling them, why does He show emotional sorrow over their sin and rebellion? Moreover, why does God plead with people to repent if they are incapable of doing so by His sovereign decree?
Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever! (Deut. 5:29).
But My people did not listen to My voice; and Israel did not obey Me. So I gave them over to the stubbornness of their heart, to walk in their own devices. Oh that My people would listen to Me, that Israel would walk in My ways! I would quickly subdue their enemies, and turn My hand against their adversaries (Ps. 18:11-14). It’s interesting to notice that He said His people did not listen to His voice. They weren’t made alive yet. They were “dead in their trespasses”.
Say to them, “As I live!” declares the Lord God, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?” (Ezek. 33:11)
Matt . 23:37 shows Jesus weeping over Jerusalem’s children for not coming to Him.
Rom. 9:23 says God endures with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. One thing to notice here is that the vessels of mercy were prepared beforehand, but it doesn’t say this is so with the vessels of wrath.
2 Pet. 3:9 shows him not willing that any perish but that all comes to repentance.
So in these instances, if He has decreed some to hell, why is He weeping and showing emotional sorrow for them. Is he pretending ? Or is He expressing His heart for them sincerely? Either way, it doesn't look good for Reformed theology.
Note:God is Omniscient, and knows everything that could ever happen.
Well got to go, I have copied your post to Microsoft works, and plan to share more of it to you on what I noticed. Be blessed.
SoaringEagle
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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You said,
But God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when he wills. "He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!" (Daniel 4:35). "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases" (Psalm 115:3). When God undertakes to fulfill his sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist him.
Your first statement is true indeed. God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when He wills. But, I disagree with you when it comes to the way He has chosen to express His sovereignty, according to the revelation of Scripture. You would say this means that He ordains every decision of every person that’s ever lived, but you’ll need some Scriptures that clearly says this. You know, one that spells it out plain as day, not one you’d have to depict, attempting to interpret a language you know very little of, and coming to conclusions based on a guess. Bring something more conclusive my friend. Daniel 4:35 is just that. It talks of His Sovereignty, that He is ultimately in control. The Supreme Creator of all the earth. Not that He determines every action. Psalm 115:3 says “ Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. I strongly agree. He does whatever He pleases, but never makes decisions outside of, detached from, or disconnected from His nature. He isn’t Just sovereign. He is more than that. He is Holy, He is Righteous, and Just. He is merciful and what else? He is also all-loving. That’s right. Many focus so much on His Sovereignty, but at the expense of His omni benevolence. It appears that you are among the those that does just that.
You see, we aren’t far off when it comes to how we view mankind’s fallen nature, with the exception of a sinners responsibility, oops, I mean a sinner’s response ability. But, on top of God viewing the lost as “evil and wicked” He also views them in the following way as well; consider this: When a man has intercourse with a woman, He imparts them with his seed, and the woman is impregnated. Nine months later, a child is born, and that child is part of the father. His seed belonged to him and now a child. He has incredible love for his child. Well In a like way, God forms the seed into a baby in the mothers womb as Scripture says, and He breathes life into it. It becomes a living creature, His very own creation. A creature that bears His image. A creature belonging to Him. That creature is part of Him. So it is in this way that He loves them with an infinite love, although they deserved to be punished for their wickedness. This is why the invitation of the “gospel of salvation” is to “every creature” as Mark 16 says. Because the He is no respecter of persons, and shows personal favortism to no one, each invitation to “come, and take the water of life freely” is with all His heart, and is just as infinitely sincere as the invitations presented to every other invitation.
You were right when you said when God undertakes to fulfill His sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist Him. But God never does anything against anyone’s will, or force them to do anything. The crucifixion of Christ is an example. Jesus was delivered by the determined purpose aNd the foreknowledge of God. This meant no demon, no angel, no man, or anything else is all creation could stop what God determined and foreknew would come to pass. It was God’s set purpose. Yet even though it was set and determined from all eternity that Jesus would die, Jesus said He did it freely In John 10:17. “I lay down my life- only to take it up again. No one takes it from men, but I lay it down of my own accord” He says. In the garden, He was faced with two choices. To take the cup the Father had for Him, or to avoid it. He had a choice, but chose to take the cup and said “not my will but Yours be done”. Things like this that God ordained before the time cannot be overridden, but I have yet to see where Scripture says God has pre-determined every decision by every person that’s ever lived. God’s will can be resisted, and rejected. It could be His will to save, but a person can reject that. Luke 7:29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors declared the righteousness of God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by Him. Some translations says the “purpose of God”.
IN Christ with more to share,
SoaringEagle
But God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when he wills. "He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!" (Daniel 4:35). "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases" (Psalm 115:3). When God undertakes to fulfill his sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist him.
Your first statement is true indeed. God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when He wills. But, I disagree with you when it comes to the way He has chosen to express His sovereignty, according to the revelation of Scripture. You would say this means that He ordains every decision of every person that’s ever lived, but you’ll need some Scriptures that clearly says this. You know, one that spells it out plain as day, not one you’d have to depict, attempting to interpret a language you know very little of, and coming to conclusions based on a guess. Bring something more conclusive my friend. Daniel 4:35 is just that. It talks of His Sovereignty, that He is ultimately in control. The Supreme Creator of all the earth. Not that He determines every action. Psalm 115:3 says “ Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases. I strongly agree. He does whatever He pleases, but never makes decisions outside of, detached from, or disconnected from His nature. He isn’t Just sovereign. He is more than that. He is Holy, He is Righteous, and Just. He is merciful and what else? He is also all-loving. That’s right. Many focus so much on His Sovereignty, but at the expense of His omni benevolence. It appears that you are among the those that does just that.
You see, we aren’t far off when it comes to how we view mankind’s fallen nature, with the exception of a sinners responsibility, oops, I mean a sinner’s response ability. But, on top of God viewing the lost as “evil and wicked” He also views them in the following way as well; consider this: When a man has intercourse with a woman, He imparts them with his seed, and the woman is impregnated. Nine months later, a child is born, and that child is part of the father. His seed belonged to him and now a child. He has incredible love for his child. Well In a like way, God forms the seed into a baby in the mothers womb as Scripture says, and He breathes life into it. It becomes a living creature, His very own creation. A creature that bears His image. A creature belonging to Him. That creature is part of Him. So it is in this way that He loves them with an infinite love, although they deserved to be punished for their wickedness. This is why the invitation of the “gospel of salvation” is to “every creature” as Mark 16 says. Because the He is no respecter of persons, and shows personal favortism to no one, each invitation to “come, and take the water of life freely” is with all His heart, and is just as infinitely sincere as the invitations presented to every other invitation.
You were right when you said when God undertakes to fulfill His sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist Him. But God never does anything against anyone’s will, or force them to do anything. The crucifixion of Christ is an example. Jesus was delivered by the determined purpose aNd the foreknowledge of God. This meant no demon, no angel, no man, or anything else is all creation could stop what God determined and foreknew would come to pass. It was God’s set purpose. Yet even though it was set and determined from all eternity that Jesus would die, Jesus said He did it freely In John 10:17. “I lay down my life- only to take it up again. No one takes it from men, but I lay it down of my own accord” He says. In the garden, He was faced with two choices. To take the cup the Father had for Him, or to avoid it. He had a choice, but chose to take the cup and said “not my will but Yours be done”. Things like this that God ordained before the time cannot be overridden, but I have yet to see where Scripture says God has pre-determined every decision by every person that’s ever lived. God’s will can be resisted, and rejected. It could be His will to save, but a person can reject that. Luke 7:29 And when all the people heard Him, even the tax collectors declared the righteousness of God, having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by Him. Some translations says the “purpose of God”.
IN Christ with more to share,
SoaringEagle
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: