The human nature of the Logos

Post by **_Ely** » Thu May 24, 2007 3:17 am

Guys,

He emptied himself of his divinity

Jesus not only became a man, but that He lived here as a man, emptied of His divine attributes.

In becoming man, He divested Himself of all of His divine attibutes

When you speak like this, are you using the normal English definition of these words:

attribute (n): "a property, quality or feature belonging to, or representative of a person or thing."

empty (vb): "to make or become empty"
empty (adj): "containing nothing"

divest (vb); "to deprive or dispossess"

Are you saying that prior to the incarnation, the Logos had some properties, qualities and features which belonged to Deity ("godhood"/ "Yahweh-ness") or were representative of Deity. He then deprived/dispossessed himself of these properties, qualities and features and thus did not contain them in himself?

If so, how does this relate to your ideas about the Godhead/ divinity? If I remember rightly, you believe that there are two, or possibly three persons who each have divinity. You would say that Jesus still had divinity even though he didn't have divine attributes. So, what's the difference between divinity/Godhead and divine attributes? Is it possible for a being to have one without the other?

Post by **_Derek** » Thu May 24, 2007 5:07 am

So, what's the difference between divinity/Godhead and divine attributes? Is it possible for a being to have one without the other?

Sure. Why not? One is something He is, while the other (an attribute) is something He has.

For Jesus to give up omniscience, does not mean He loses His divine nature. I don't see how one follows from the other.

If a human has severe brain damage, they may loose the human attribute of rationality. Does that make them cease to be human?

Post by **_Ely** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:04 am

Derek wrote:
So, what's the difference between divinity/Godhead and divine attributes? Is it possible for a being to have one without the other?
Sure. Why not? One is something He is, while the other (an attribute) is something He has.

For Jesus to give up omniscience, does not mean He loses His divine nature. I don't see how one follows from the other.

If a human has severe brain damage, they may loose the human attribute of rationality. Does that make them cease to be human?

So how can one recognise God if not by His attributes? What I mean is:

What is God?

Post by **_Derek** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:53 am

So how can one recognise God if not by His attributes? What I mean is:

What is God?

Ely,

Did you wait until you "recognised" omniscience in God before you believed He was God? Or do you rather trust His word? I see that the bible calls Jesus God, Jesus claims to be God, albeit divested of His divine attributes, so I believe Him and His word.

I would come back to my human example here. Would you say to our brain damaged friend, "This person clearly does not have the human attribute of rationality, therefore he is not human". ?

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu May 24, 2007 10:50 am

So how can one recognise God if not by His attributes? What I mean is:

What is God?

The word "God" is often reserved for the Father alone, but it is also used for the class of Being. Horse begets horse. The offspring is equinine. Dog begets dog. The offspring is canine. Man begets man. The offspring is human. God begets God. The offspring is divine.

God begat only one offspring "the only-generated (or "only begotten") Son". Also "the only-generated God" (John 1:18 NASB and early Greek manuscripts). The one generated was a Person. Though after the divine self-emptying, He no longer had the attributes of God, He did retain His identity. He was the same person.

When I say He is "God", in no way do I mean that He is the same individual as God the Father, the Creator. Nor do I mean that He is in some sense a part of a mysterious Trinity. Rather I mean that, in virtue of His having been begotten by the Father, He is of the same order of Being as the Father, and is therefore equally divine.

I think the way that Jesus could be recognized as divine, was the fact that no other man was totally in subjection to the Father in the way that He was, and thus He was sinless ---- not because His divinity disallowed sin, but because He always freely chose righteousness. Thus He was the pioneer of our salvation (Heb 2:10) and the pioneer of our faith (Heb 12:2). He had to be made perfect or complete through suffering (Heb 2:10). Thus He showed us the way ---- the possibility of being righteous also, and He died to deliver us from sin ---- not positionally, but actually!
He showed us the possibility of always choosing rightousness also, and provided the means --- enabling grace (Titus 2) to do so!

Post by **_Ely** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:59 pm

Is God still God without His attributes?

Derek wrote:I would come back to my human example here. Would you say to our brain damaged friend, "This person clearly does not have the human attribute of rationality, therefore he is not human". ?

Sure, imperfect humans do not stop becoming humans because of their imperfections. But does the Bible support the idea that God can still be God without having His attrributes? I want to draw your attention to a very significant text in latter part of Isaiah. Pay very close attention folks:

“ Present your case,” says the Yahweh.
“ Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob.
“ Let them bring forth and show us what will happen;
Let them show the former things, what they were,
That we may consider them,
And know the latter end of them;
Or declare to us things to come.
Show the things that are to come hereafter,
That we may know that you are elohim (gods)" 41:21-23a

Many centuries later, Jesus, the son of God, said concerning his parousia:

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32

Without any prompting, Jesus expressly, explicitly, unequivocaly says that there are some things to come that he does not know and thus cannot declare.

According to the challenge which Yahweh set in Isaiah, does Jesus 'qualify' to be God?

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu May 24, 2007 7:12 pm

According to the challenge which Yahweh set in Isaiah, does Jesus 'qualify' to be God?

This challenge was given to the nations concerning their gods --- their lifeless, graven, images which knew nothing --- had no conciousness.

God the Father would offer no such challenge to His Son. After all It was the Father who generated Him. He knew His Son was divine like Himself.

Post by **_Derek** » Thu May 24, 2007 11:51 pm

Without any prompting, Jesus expressly, explicitly, unequivocaly says that there are some things to come that he does not know and thus cannot declare.

He was not ignorant of this event because He was not God, but because He emptied Himself of this attribute (omniscience).

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri May 25, 2007 2:02 pm

He was not ignorant of this event because He was not God, but because He emptied Himself of this attribute (omniscience).

But, Derek, didn't he regain his divine attributes after His resurrection?
Then why was He still not omniscient when God gave Him a revelation of the events which would soon take place?

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John... Revelation 1:1 RSV

Post by **_Derek** » Fri May 25, 2007 2:54 pm

But, Derek, didn't he regain his divine attributes after His resurrection?

I don't know if He did or not actually. I can't think of any scriptures that say one way or the other. He still has a human body, albeit a glorified body.

Do the scriptures teach that He gained back the attributes He "emptied" before?