Worshipping the MAN Christ Jesus?

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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Tue May 22, 2007 5:45 pm

Ely, To my knowledge trinitarianism says there is one God revealed in three persons therefore it does not claim that Jesus is Yahweh.
I am not sure what authority we could quote, but I am pretty sure most trinitarians think that Yahweh is the trinity.

Another way of saying the trinity would be Jesus. This is evidenced by the fact that Jesus commanded the disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, however, they seemed to think it was fine to baptize in the name of Jesus.

Trinitarians don't think that the Father and Son are the same person though.
That's how i believe that the Father can be the source yet Jesus is not a creation because he is from the substance of God. The source of the Holy Spirit is Yahweh yet you would probably not claim the Holy Spirit is created regardless of whether you attribute personhood to Him/it.
I think it is a mistake to interpret these verses out of the context of the incarnation. The bible never says of the pre-incarnate Jesus that He "came from" anywhere, or was "begotten", "generated", etc.. to my knowlege.
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue May 22, 2007 6:21 pm

think it is a mistake to interpret these verses out of the context of the incarnation. The bible never says of the pre-incarnate Jesus that He "came from" anywhere, or was "begotten", "generated", etc.. to my knowlege.

I think it's implied in "of God." The Word of God and the Spirit of God. It is true you will find the expression, "angels of God" also but i think re angels it simply means they were creations of God.
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Tue May 22, 2007 6:33 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:think it is a mistake to interpret these verses out of the context of the incarnation. The bible never says of the pre-incarnate Jesus that He "came from" anywhere, or was "begotten", "generated", etc.. to my knowlege.

I think it's implied in "of God." The Word of God and the Spirit of God. It is true you will find the expression, "angels of God" also but i think re angels it simply means they were creations of God.
My point is that Jesus is only said to be God's Son, begotten, and all of these other terms, during His incarnation.

I agree that Jesus was "of God" in that God sent Him here, God is His Father, etc...But I don't see that God is somehow eternally generating Him, or something.

Feel free to believe that. It seems to match all of the creeds and all. I just don't see it in the bible. I think that they are interpreting Jesus' words, which I understood in light of the incarnation, as if they speak of an eternal act of 'begetting".

But again, it's not a big deal.

God bless,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Tue May 22, 2007 10:09 pm

Matthew 19:16-17 (New King James Version)

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”


Here we find a man, who thought Jesus to be merely a man, referring to Jesus as "good". Jesus informs the man emphatically that no one is good but God. Jesus means good here in the absolute sense. We know this because Jesus spoke of man being good in a relative sense:

Matthew 12:35 (New King James Version)

35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.


By Jesus own statements we are informed that no one but God is good in an absolute sense. Men are good (or bad) in a relative sense. If Jesus is good in an absolute sense, he is God in the flesh. And we do believe in the sinlessness of Jesus, do we not? And would this not be goodness in the absolute sense? And on the other hand, if Jesus is good only in the relative sense, he is not God, and is in need of a savior, as are the rest of us who are only relatively good.
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed May 23, 2007 6:09 am

Ely,

How many firsts, lasts, Alphas, Omegas, Beginnings, Endings are there?

Until the book of Revelation there's only one, but it would appear that now there's two. Two firsts, and two Lasts, etc.

I would also like for you to comment on the parallelism between Rev. 1:8 and 1:17-18. Do you not see any signifigance between, "which is, and which was, and which is to come" and "that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"?

God bless,
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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Post by _Ely » Wed May 23, 2007 6:22 am

Derek wrote:How many firsts, lasts, Alphas, Omegas, Beginnings, Endings are there?

Until the book of Revelation there's only one, but it would appear that now there's two. Two firsts, and two Lasts, etc.

Yes, you're right. There are two people who in the scriptures have these appelations applied to them, just as there are several who have the title "king of kings" applied to them!
Derek wrote:I would also like for you to comment on the parallelism between Rev. 1:8 and 1:17-18. Do you not see any signifigance between, "which is, and which was, and which is to come" and "that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore"?
I do see that these are similar-sounding statements, yes. But I really don't think this means that Jesus is saying that he is the Lord God Almighty. Elsewhere, he said to the Father "you [are] the "only true God" (John 17:3. We must interpret the information in Revelation in light of clear, simple monotheistic statements such as these.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed May 23, 2007 9:43 am

My point is that Jesus is only said to be God's Son, begotten, and all of these other terms, during His incarnation.

I agree that Jesus was "of God" in that God sent Him here, God is His Father, etc...But I don't see that God is somehow eternally generating Him, or something.


When i use the phrase "of God" for the "Word" or the "Spirit" i think it means "from God" therefore the question is whether the Word or the Spirit have eternally been separate "beings" or at some point came out of God. After all, God is Spirit so there are no physical boundaries.
Of course we don't really know but my understanding is that if each existed eternally and separately from Yahweh then i don't see how it can be said that there is only One God.
And no i don't understand what you mean by "eternally generating" because once the Spirit and Word came out of God they are divine, they don't need any generating.
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Wed May 23, 2007 12:06 pm

Hello, Paidion,
Paidion: Isaiah 9:6
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

If Jesus is "the Everlasting Father", then the Modalists, not the Trinitarians, are right!

Some manuscripts of the Septuagint, instead of "Everlasting Father" have "Father of the age to come". Jesus is the Father of the age to come, that is the age in which He will reign. But when all things have been put under His feet, that age will end, and the Kingdom will be turned over to the Father, that God may be all in all. (I Cor 15)

How do you square such an interpretation with Matthew 23:9: "Do not call [anyone] your father upon the earth, for one is your Father: he who is in the heavens"?


Shlamaa,
Emmet


P.S.: edited once to improve the translation....
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Wed May 23, 2007 2:21 pm

Hello, Homer,
Matthew 19:16-17 (New King James Version)

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”



Here we find a man, who thought Jesus to be merely a man, referring to Jesus as "good". Jesus informs the man emphatically that no one is good but God.

We may compare, however, the textual variant, followed by the NASB, NIV, etc.:

:arrow: first of all, the man does not call Jesus "Good teacher," but simply "Teacher";

:arrow: second, Jesus responds with "Why are you asking me about the good? One is the good."


So we have here some contradictory evidence. Mark, Luke, and some manuscript evidence for Matthew focus on Jesus and render the exchange in the sense that "no one is good but God"; other evidence focuses on the man's question and renders in a rather vague line - that one thing or person is good.

Which is more trustworthy? We may entertain a number of considerations:

:arrow: On the one hand, it would be understandable if the "vague-line" reading of Matthew were to have replaced a pattern like that of Mark and Luke in some manuscripts, if certain scribes preferred to deflect the propostion that "no one is good but God";

:arrow: On the other hand, it would be understandable if the "vague-line" reading of Matthew were replaced in some manuscripts by certain scribes, in order to bring the text into agreement with the pattern in Mark and in Luke (this kind of editorial adjustment is not unknown in the body of manuscript evidence);

:arrow: Then again, we may hypothesize an original comment that could have been vague enough to spawn both kinds of "fleshing-out" in the manuscript evidence. If Jesus' response were something like: Why "good"? One is "good" - then each of the variants could have nuanced their version in an attempt to more clearly communicate the meaning they perceived.

But such a terse response could be construed in still another way, especially if the tone were ambiguous (or simply unavailable to a secondary witness):

"Why [are you asking about a] "good" [thing]? [Only] one [thing] is "good"? But if you want to enter life, keep the commandments [(as in plural, mister - stop trying to low-ball it)].


Shlamaa,
Emmet
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Post by _Paidion » Wed May 23, 2007 11:42 pm

My point is that Jesus is only said to be God's Son, begotten, and all of these other terms, during His incarnation.

I agree that Jesus was "of God" in that God sent Him here, God is His Father, etc...But I don't see that God is somehow eternally generating Him, or something.
The Bible does speak of His generation, that He is the only-generated Son of God, and also that He is the only-generated God (God the Father is ungenerate) John 1:18 (in ALL known manuscripts prior to 300 A.D.). Jesus Himself said that He emerged out of God. Proverbs 8:22-31 was universally believed by the early Christians to refer to the Son of God, begotten as the first of God's works before all ages. It was believed that the Son was the personification of "Wisdom".

After Arianism took this truth too far, the Catholic authorities of the day, in their reaction, concocted "eternal generation" to explain the generation of the Son. But this was so far out and meaningless, that it has been virtually forgotten, except in Catholic and Orthodox circles. Most modern Christians suppose that the "the only-generated Sond of God" refers to His generation from the womb of Mary. As far as I know, such an idea never entered the heads of Christians before the sixth century.
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