Israel

Post by **__id_1679** » Tue May 22, 2007 10:58 am

Brothers

I'am new to this forum. Much of what I've read regarding Israel is scattered all over the boards. It would be convienent to have the discussions in one place. There are a number of opinions floating around concerning Israel. My question to all is what role if any does or will Israel play in the plan of God? Is there any good reason to think God has replaced Israel with the Church? They are afterall back in the Land. Although the majority are in unbelief. What are your thoughts?

Blessings in Jesus to all,
Bob

Post by **_TK** » Tue May 22, 2007 11:50 am

Welcome Bob!

you wrote:

Is there any good reason to think God has replaced Israel with the Church?

yes, many! but others here are more expert than I so I will let them elaborate.

You might want to listen to Steve G's 4 part topical teaching "What are we to make of Israel?"

TK

Post by **_Sean** » Wed May 23, 2007 5:01 pm

Hello Bob,
You could look in the Eschatology section.

True Israel still continues on as believers in the Messiah with Gentiles grafted in. (Rom 11:19, Eph 2:15-16)

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed May 23, 2007 6:16 pm

My question to all is what role if any does or will Israel play in the plan of God? Is there any good reason to think God has replaced Israel with the Church? They are afterall back in the Land. Although the majority are in unbelief. What are your thoughts

I've listened To Steve Gs lectures re Israel and Romans 11 and they certainly make sense and i don't believe in a millineum after Christ's return yet it strikes me as very unlikely that Israel exists again today because of a self fulfilling prophecy engineered by dispensationals in 1948.
No i think it is by God's design that Israel exists and it's not a coincidence that almost the entire muslim world would like to wipe it out.

Post by **_Paidion** » Wed May 23, 2007 11:57 pm

Is there any good reason to think God has replaced Israel with the Church?

I don't think "replaced" is the correct word. It gives the impression that Israel is one thing, and the Church another.

Paul spoke of "the Israel of God" or "true Israel" as Sean put it. In Old Testament times, the "remnant" who followed Yahweh wholeheartedly, was "true Israel". When Jesus the Messiah was sent to this earth to be born as a man, His disciples were the remnant, and therefore "true Israel". But, as Paul said, "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. So being biologically descended from Israel does not give a person any advantage before God. After Christ came, gentiles (those who were not biologically descended from Israel), when they became disciples of the Messiah, were grafted into "the Olive Tree", that is, True Israel, so that the two became one --- the wall of partition broken down.

As I see it, after the Holy Spirit was given to True Israel on that special day of pentecost, it became the Church.

Post by **__id_1679** » Thu May 24, 2007 1:13 am

Brothers, thanks for your replies.

I sent an e-mail to Steve with my questions and I'm hoping he will find time to answer.

As I acknowlaged to Steve, to be sure Israel's salvation rests in their recieving and believing in Christ as their Lord and saviour. They are not unique in that sense. I did ask him and I'll ask you fellas, as well; do you
think its plausable that Israel's present return to the Land (though largely in unbelief), may be God's way of "setting the table" towards their future national repentance? It sure seems that way if you consider the numerous "I wills" of God in EZ. 34-36. God gives the reason as He reminds Israel that "It is not for your sake O house of Israel that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name which you have profaned among the nations".
Reading further, God not only promises bringing them into the new covenant but also includes their eventual security in the Land! Why?
I don't think God is concerned with a believing remnant here. Every age has had a faithful remnant. There are Hebrew Christians today. They are of course part of the body of Christ. So why would God make such a fuss
over the believing remnant-if in fact this is to whom he referred? Makes no sense to me. More thoughts? Do you think 70AD was the 'end of the story' for Israel? I tend to think there maybe more to this drama.

Peace in Him,
Bob

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu May 24, 2007 6:29 am

Traveler, here is something I wrote on another board that describes my belief concerning Israel.

I believe the biggest issue concerning whether or not 1948 is the time prophesied is the understanding of who a Jew is today. Frankly folks, Jews today are at best only remotely related to Jews in the day of the Prophets. So many so called Jews today have no Jewish blood in them whatsoever and are only Jews by tradition and religion. It is virtually impossible to have a 100% Abraham blood bearing Jew today. Even in the day of our Lord when He spoke to the Samaritan woman we find that she too was a blood descendent of Abraham but was an outcast because those who claimed to be true Jews said so when in fact even those Jews were a mixed breed possibly.

So the question must be asked; is God recognizing only the part in the Jew that is blood related to Abraham and if so which segment of that blood? Since Abraham had 8 sons in all, then almost anyone in the world today could be blood related to Abraham.

So is it by blood that proponents of the 1948 issue are crediting to todays Jews or by what criteria? If by blood then how?

Surely we know, or should know, that it is not by blood but by faithfulness and only in Christ. Did you know that the promise to Abraham was based on faithfulness? This is why there has only been a remnant down through the ages. Rahab did not have one ounce of Abrahams blood in her, as far we know, but yet she was counted as a reciepient of the promise. How could that be?

What Jew today is counted as a reciepient of the promise? Is it by simply being in the land and walking and talking like a Jew? Hardly. it is by the same way all believers since the beginning of time have had to do it and that being in Christ. Even Abraham looked forward to Christ in faith, yet he never occupied the land.

Many of you seem to think that the promises of God to ancient Israel were manifested in the land and so when you see a people, at best, with mixed blood forcefully taking a land from a people (Palestinians) who have lived and raised families and yes, even in number have come to Christ, reoccupy that land then you say, hallelujah, the promise of God is being fulfilled.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The OT tells us the land promise has already been fulfilled but the Seed promise is in Christ alone.

Jews going back to the land of ancient Israel; okay, everybody needs a place to call home, but as far as fulfilling a promise by God - sorry but it isn't.

This was presented because of an ongoing debate with dispensationalists who say there are two promised people, wholly unrelated until we are all in heaven together.

Steve Gregg asked this question during one of his lectures in the series "What shall we make of Israel", How much of Abraham's blood does it take to be a descendant of Abraham? I have made this my signature question when having these debates and still no dispensationalist even attempts to answer it. That is because it is not by any of Abrahams blood that we are his descendants but by faith alone. The same kind of faith Abraham had.

The Apostle Paul declares that "all Israel will be saved" and he defines prior to that who Israel is. He shows that not all who are of Israel are Israel but that instead all who are related to Christ in Faith are the true Israel, and thus, by this way, all Israel will be saved. We are Israel. If you are in Christ Jesus then you are Israel. Christ Jesus is the Seed, the true descendant of Abraham and it is by and through Christ that we, who are made up of many nations, are the Israel Paul spoke of.

Its not that the Church replaced anything but rather the Church is the manifestation of the promise to Abraham through Christ and made up of all peoples of the earth both Jew and Gentile.

Yes, all the land promises were fulfilled thousands of years ago, but we, as the Hebrews says, are looking forward to the heavenly land that the shadow promise actually pointed to. Abrahm never entered the earthly land but the promise has been fulfilled and he now is enjoying the substance of the promise, the heavenly land.

Post by **_Paidion** » Thu May 24, 2007 10:26 am

Allyn, I am in substantial agreement with you concerning Israelites as individuals. However, I am wondering whether there are any promises for Israel as a nation? Personally, I don't think so, but the claim is that there are many such promises in the OT.

Post by **__id_1679** » Thu May 24, 2007 11:07 am

Hi Brothers,

I'll have to back to you later on the issue. (work) However there seems to be a lot of "question begging" going on with respect to my questions.
For one thing, I don't think "blood relation" to Abraham is as relavant to the issue of who "true Israel" is as many think either. We don't have Abrahams DNA to find out who belongs to who: LOL!

Until then,
Bob

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu May 24, 2007 11:42 am

Paidion wrote:Allyn, I am in substantial agreement with you concerning Israelites as individuals. However, I am wondering whether there are any promises for Israel as a nation? Personally, I don't think so, but the claim is that there are many such promises in the OT.

What possible promise could there be for any nation except in Christ? Since Christ is the fulfillment of all then all of what anyone on earth receives is in Christ. No man comes to the Father except through Christ. This is non exclusive. All that we ask for and all that has been promised must now be approached or received through Christ. Everything.