A different take on Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate

Post by **_David** » Mon May 07, 2007 10:53 am

SSS,

I am about to purchase some books on church history, because I confess I do not know much about it. However, from what little I know, I think Jonathan Edwards had a significant impact on a large number of people, did he not?

Secularism is having a large impact on people today. Jesus had few followers prior to His return to heaven. Jeremiah did not win many followers. What are we to make of this? Does might make right? Is truth determined by a democratic vote, where the idea with the most proponents is the correct one?

When Jesus said that wisdom was justified by her children, I do not think He meant by how many children there are, but how her children behaved. Therefore, I do not think your post proves your conclusion that Calvinism is wrong because Simeon is an "unknown".

Post by **_Christopher** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:03 am

SSS,

That supposed exchange between Wesley and this man seems farfetched

You might be right about this conversation. If you'll notice, I qualified the original post with the word "reportedly". I have no way of knowing for sure if it's authentic. But it apparently came out of his own works, so if it you want to assume he's a liar, then that's your perogative. I'll go ahead and give the benefit of the doubt to the man.

As for this mr. Simeon, history records no such accolades, fruit and impact. Aside from this story, he is unknown.

I don't know much about Simeon either, but I don't think it would be fair to say that history records no accolades from him. What kind of "accolades" would make him credible in your view?

If you would like to know more about Simeon, try googling his name. Here are a few for starters:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Simeon

http://www.anglicanlibrary.org/simeon/index.htm

That should tell us something about him supposedly getting the best of Wesley.

What makes you say that he got "the best" of Wesley in this exchange? I see an exchange of two people having a dialogue to understand each other better.

The whole point of my post was that in all of this debate that is presently happening, it is highly unlikely that anyone here will change their view on this topic. That may seem like a fruitless waste of time to some. But from my perspective, if some of us come away with a less combative and more charitable attitude toward the other side, then God wins and so does the Bride. We're aiming for the head, but God aims for the heart.

I know this from personal experience. When I first came on this forum, I encountered a poster (whose name I will not mention) who is a non-trinitarian, open theist, univeralist, and many other things that I disagree with. My initial reaction was, that because of these beliefs, this is not a true Christian man and I was shocked that such a "heretic" was even allowed to post here. Since then, I've come to realize that this attitude of mine was instilled in me by many alarmist Christian teachers that labeled all these things as heresy. But now I see that the bible is not as black and white on these issues as I once thought and that there is room for disagreement here among true disciples of Christ. I now embrace this person as a brother in the Lord. Of course, only God knows for sure.

Even you, SSS, have apologized in other threads for your brashness. That's the Spirit of God my friend. Our opinions and views may not change from the discussions, but our attitudes can and through it God can bring us ever so much closer to a "unity of the Spirit" until we come to a "unity of the knowledge".

Lord bless.

Post by **_TK** » Mon May 07, 2007 2:17 pm

christopher wrote:

When I first came on this forum, I encountered a poster (whose name I will not mention) who is a non-trinitarian, open theist, univeralist, and many other things that I disagree with. My initial reaction was, that because of these beliefs, this is not a true Christian man and I was shocked that such a "heretic" was even allowed to post here. Since then, I've come to realize that this attitude of mine was instilled in me by many alarmist Christian teachers that labeled all these things as heresy. But now I see that the bible is not as black and white on these issues as I once thought and that there is room for disagreement here among true disciples of Christ. I now embrace this person as a brother in the Lord. Of course, only God knows for sure.

Ditto!

TK

Post by **_Derek** » Mon May 07, 2007 4:43 pm

I am about to purchase some books on church history, because I confess I do not know much about it. However, from what little I know, I think Jonathan Edwards had a significant impact on a large number of people, did he not?

Not to mention Whitefield, and Spurgeon. And though some facets of his character may be controversial, it cannot be denied that God used Luther in mighty ways.

The fact is, God has used both Arminians and Calvinists, Charasmatics and Cessationists, even Palagians (Finney) in great mighty moves of His Spirit. This should tell us something.

God does not seem to discriminate between differing soteriologies when choosing a vessel by which to expand His kingdom. He only looks for those that call on Him "out of a pure heart".

I see no need to be so devisive over something God apparently does not feel is worth dividing Christ's body over. It is plain in His use of both camps, that He does not, for surely He would not expand His kingdom in these revivals to make rivals out of His people!

Post by **_David** » Mon May 07, 2007 5:44 pm

Derek,

Amen. I think we should continue to discuss these things, because they are of great importance, but we should recognize God's willingness to use people of both camps in great ways. Who could deny that God used Wesley to save many thousands of people? Or Spurgeon?

Post by **_Rick_C** » Mon May 07, 2007 6:01 pm

Seems to me, from what was posted, that Wesley answered both truthfully and in such a way so as to not take "the debate bait"....I could be wrong tho.

"Do not answer a fool according to his folly
or you will be like him yourself." -- Pro. 26:4

I wonder if Wesley had this verse in mind. He could have....