Who are "Us" and "We" in Ephesians 1?

Post Reply
User avatar
_Homer
Posts: 639
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Brownsville

Who are "Us" and "We" in Ephesians 1?

Post by _Homer » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:11 pm

In the verses 1-12 of Ephesians 1, Paul uses "us" six times and "we" four times in reference to someone being "chosen" and "predestined'. To whom does he refer? To the unconditionally elect as in the Calvinist view or to all who are saved, those in Christ? It seems likely that Paul had a more limited group in mind, namely the apostles and prophets, and them alone.

Could the Ephesians be included in the "us" and "we" of the first twelve verses? It seems unlikely because Paul says in verse 12 that the "we" are among those those "who first trusted in Christ". This certainly can not include the gentile Ephesians. This idea is strengthened by Paul's statement in verse 13, "In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth...", which was certainly long after those who first trusted Christ.

Also supporting this view rather strongly, in my opinion, is the statement in verse 9 that "having made known to us the mystery of His will," which Paul explicity limits in Ephesians 3:1-6 to himself (v. 3) and the Apostles and prophets (v. 5), so the "us" is limited to the same.

This understanding seems to fit well with the "us" and "we" being the apostles and prophets. The scriptures inform us all the Apostles were chosen personally by Jesus, including, I believe, Matthias. It is my belief The Lord answered their prayer in the narrative of Acts 1:23-26. And are not the prophets chosen also by the Lord, Ephesians 4:11?

In regard to "us" and "we" being all of the Church through the ages, Paul speaks of the "us" and "we" having received certain blessings at the time he wrote. Could this be said of millions of Christians who did not yet exist?

Comments anyone?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
A Berean

User avatar
_Paidion
Posts: 944
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:42 pm
Location: Chapple, Ontario

Post by _Paidion » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:26 am

In our day of individualism, we may think of the "us" of Ephesians 1 as referring to some select group of individuals. If that is the case, this group was chosen before the foundation of the cosmos, and thus the Calvinists would appear to be correct.

In fact, no one existed before the foundation of the cosmos, and so how could God have chosen them?

If possible let's attempt to shift our whole basis of thinking. All quotes are from the RSV (unless specified as NRSV) with the exception of the bolded words which I believe to be a more accurate translation of the Greek.

vs 3,4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Before the foundation of the cosmos, the Father had a plan ---- to create man with the intention of having a people who would communicate with Him and be holy as He is holy.

vs5 He pre-appointed us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

It was God's pre-appointment, that is, an appointment made before hand, even before their creation, that the people whom He would create would be His sons through His only-begotten SON, now known as Jesus Christ.
That has been the case with some throughout the ages, who have submitted to Him. But it is not necessary to keep an appointment which has been made for you. Most people haven't kept that appointment.

vs 9,10 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

God's great plan and purpose and appointment to create man to be His holy children seems to have been thwarted throughout the ages by the majority of people. God created man and his descendants to have free will like Himself (created in His image). Thus the possibility to rebel against God's plan is always a possibility for any person. Most people have , in fact, not yielded to His will. But ultimately, that great plan will be realized! His plan of the ages "for the fullness of time" is to unite everything in Christ in heaven and on earth. Ultimately, all persons, including those who will be corrected in Gehenna, will submit to Christ, just as all of His disciples of all ages have.

vs 11,12
In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been pre-appointed according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. NRSV


We have obtained an inheritance, but it is not yet ours until we mature. In another place Paul gives an example of a son who is given an inheritance by his father, but he is not in control of that inheritance until the date set by his father. But even now, the purpose of God to have a people of His own has begun. So "we who were the first to set our hope on Christ" from Paul's perspective, we all the disciples of his day. But in a sense, every disciple since then is among "the first to set their hope on Christ" since they did it during their life times, and have avoided the long ages of correction in Gehenna.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

_PR
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:54 am

Post by _PR » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:39 pm

Great question...

Several years ago I heard this very question addressed by Pastor Donald Cole, a teacher on the Moody radio network.

If I remember correctly, Pastor Cole concluded that the "we" that Paul was referring to in vs 1-12 were Jewish believers . The "you" in verse 13 onward refered to the Gentile believers.

PR
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Derek
Posts: 291
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:27 am
Location: Marietta GA

Post by _Derek » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:28 pm

Homer,

This is a very timely post, because I just started reading it today. Thanks for bringing this up.
Could the Ephesians be included in the "us" and "we" of the first twelve verses? It seems unlikely because Paul says in verse 12 that the "we" are among those those "who first trusted in Christ". This certainly can not include the gentile Ephesians. This idea is strengthened by Paul's statement in verse 13, "In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth...", which was certainly long after those who first trusted Christ.
Do you think that it is out of the question that only the "we" in vs. 12 is being qualified by "who first trusted in Christ"? I don't see any problem with all of the rest of the discourse being directed at the church.

Also, the idea that the "we" were chosen "before the foundation or the world" fits better with the the "chosen" being all that are "in Him", in my opinion.

Also supporting this view rather strongly, in my opinion, is the statement in verse 9 that "having made known to us the mystery of His will," which Paul explicity limits in Ephesians 3:1-6 to himself (v. 3) and the Apostles and prophets (v. 5), so the "us" is limited to the same.
By Paul telling them, God made known to everyone the mystery of His will. Of course the Apostles were the first to know, but God told everyone by them.
This understanding seems to fit well with the "us" and "we" being the apostles and prophets. The scriptures inform us all the Apostles were chosen personally by Jesus, including, I believe, Matthias. It is my belief The Lord answered their prayer in the narrative of Acts 1:23-26. And are not the prophets chosen also by the Lord, Ephesians 4:11?
Does this not lead to sort of a "half" Calvinist idea? Where God does the Calvinist thing with only some? Certainly He predestinates everyone that is "in Christ" unto the adoption of children by Jesus to Himself...
In regard to "us" and "we" being all of the Church through the ages, Paul speaks of the "us" and "we" having received certain blessings at the time he wrote. Could this be said of millions of Christians who did not yet exist?
If you are speaking of the "spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ", I would say that Eph. 2:6 speaks of this.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

I have never considered what you are saying before. All of the commentaries that I have read treat vs. 12 as speaking of the early Jewish believers, however, they never make a connection with the preceding verses. It's a good observation.

God bless,
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

User avatar
_Homer
Posts: 639
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Brownsville

Post by _Homer » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:50 pm

Derek,

You wrote:
Does this not lead to sort of a "half" Calvinist idea? Where God does the Calvinist thing with only some? Certainly He predestinates everyone that is "in Christ" unto the adoption of children by Jesus to Himself...
The idea of the "us" and "we" being in reference to the Apostles and Prophets would seem to refute the "P" in the TULIP. Judas Iscariot was one of the "chosen" twelve and he certainly did not persevere to the end.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
A Berean

_Sean
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:42 am
Location: Smithton, IL

Post by _Sean » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:55 pm

Very nice post Homer. That's something to consider.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

__id_1497
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Ephesians 1 "and you also" exegesis

Post by __id_1497 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:36 pm

I am brand new here, and a friend pointed this great site out to me. Please take everything I say in grace and know that sometimes it sounds like I have an aggressive or hostile tone, and I don't mean to. I have been reading these posts and think you are all fine gentlemen (and women). :) Now to the nitty gritty;

I did a thorough study of Ephesians 1, particularly verse 13 “and you also”. After reading this in its entirety, I have come to the conclusion that the idea that “there’s this massive break in verse 13 between the audience and intention of who gets what blessing” is exegetically unwarranted.

I quickly did up a write-up on this and I’d love for you to go over it with Bible in hand. I hope you will see the overall point.

Ephesians 1:3-14 in the Greek does not have the commas and periods that some translators have put in. There is no stopping point between verses 3 and 14. It is one continuous passionate thought flow of praise and thankfulness with no break. Ephesians chapter 1 does not so much deal with salvation brought to Jews and then Gentiles, or “apostles and then the common folk” as some would say, but salvation first from “the heavenly perspective”, and then salvation from the “earthly”, or our perspective; more specifically, the role of each member of the trinity in salvation, and our role.

THE ROLES
 Verses 3-6: God the Father’s role (Predestining)
 Verses 7-12: God the Son’s role (redeeming)
 Verses 13-14: our role (response –faith, believing)
 Verses 13-14: Holy Spirit’s role (sealing)

THE METHODS
 Verse 4: His love
 Verses 5, 9, 11: His will
 Verses 6-7: His grace
 Verse 7: His blood
 Verse 9: His good intention
 Verse 11: His purpose

THE GOAL AND RESULT
 Verse 6: To the praise of His glorious grace
 Verse 12: For the praise of His glory
 Verse 14: to the praise of His glory

Verses 3-12 are the heavenly perspective of which member of the trinity performed which task in salvation, all to God’s glory. Verse 13 shows that we were not passive but had an active role on the process of salvation in that we believed (“you also”), meaning, “not only God the Father participated, not only God the Son participated, but YOU ALSO participated, by believing, by having faith.” Verse 14 shows that because God the Father elected and predestined us for salvation in Him, and that because God the Son redeemed us for salvation by His blood in Him, and that because we also participated in salvation by believing in Him, because of these things, the Holy Spirit seals us in Him.
The ongoing sealing of the Holy Spirit depends on our present faith, and our faith depends on previously what Christ and the Father did. The “you also” is the visible point of change. The reality of Paul’s readers hope is what invisibly happened before in eternity past with the Father, recently in history past with the Son, and presently the visible reality of their faith, guaranteeing their invisible sealing by the Holy Spirit.

Note how everything is “in Him” or “in Christ”.
 Verse 3 “In Christ”.
 Verse 4 “In Him”.
 Verse 7 “In Him”.
 Verse 9 “In Christ”.
 Verse 10 “In Him”.
 Verse 11 “In Him”.
 Verse 13 “In Him”.

The “you also” doesn’t mean “hey you other group of people over there, you also believed like we Jewish apostles did!” It means “In addition to being elected by the Father and redeemed by the Son, because you also believed, you are now sealed”. The faith is the proof that we have been elected and redeemed. The subject of the “also” here is not “you people also” but “your faith also”. It’s not a new and different kind of people that are being added onto the list in salvation (where other kinds of people were already on it-the Jewish apostles). The faith of the people that were predestined and redeemed is what’s being added. And because of this addition, the Holy Spirit has also sealed them. “In Him you also…were sealed”.

Verse 15 bases everything that follows on everything that preceded: “For this reason”. Because Paul heard that those at Ephesus had faith, it means they had participated in the process of salvation, as previously noted in verse 13 “In Him you also believed and were sealed”. Verse 18 “The hope to which he has called you”. Who? God the Father in Verse 17, the same one calling, electing, predestining in verses 3-6. Verses 19-20 “immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead”, referring back again to the previous is verses 7-12.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF EPHESIANS CHAPTER 1:3-14?
A) Paul wanted to let the Ephesians know that only the apostles were blessed with every spiritual blessing, chosen, predestined, adopted, redeemed, forgiven, received an inheritance, holy and blameless? (up to verse 13) But the non-apostles are just sealed by the Holy Spirit, and that’s it? (verse 14 on)
B) Paul wanted to let the Gentile Ephesians know that only the Jewish apostles and/or Jewish people were blessed with every spiritual blessing, chosen, predestined, adopted, redeemed, forgiven, received an inheritance, holy and blameless? (up to verse 13) But the gentiles are just sealed by the Holy Spirit, and that’s it? (verse 14 on)
C) Paul wanted to let the Ephesians know that all members of the trinity were involved in their salvation, including God the Father in predestining them, God the Son in redeeming them, and the Holy Spirit in sealing them, and they can be sure of this by seeing how they have believed, as Paul has noticed this about them?
The answer contextually, is choice C.

YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS
• Those who argue A or B only want to reserve the “predestination” and “chosen” aspects for the apostles and/or Jews, but want to keep the rest listed for everyone in the church. But this is not allowed, according to their own interpretation. Everything listed before the supposed “break” in verse 13 between apostles/Jews and the church should apply ONLY to the apostles/Jews, as per the argument.
• Which would be Paul’s greater mission? To teach the gentile Ephesians that Jews were adopted by God, or that gentiles are now adopted by God? The phrase “in love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ” occurs in verse 5, way before the supposed “break” of who Paul is referring to as beneficiaries. If Paul is indeed arguing that only Jewish apostles were predestined out of love (God loves them more than Ephesian Christians?) for adoption through (via) Jesus, does He take a different route, or use a different method to adopt gentile Christians? And is it not based on love, and is it not through Christ (or is it through some other channel ‘inside’ Christ?) This is untenable.

• There is no break in the Greek between verses 3 and 14. The pauses, commas, periods are inserted by the translators.

• The source for resisting the predestination and God’s choice of people does not come from the text, but from the objector’s own system (and heart) that wants to retain man’s supposed autonomous free will in salvation. But if God predestined JUST Jewish apostles, and no one else, this still poses the exact same problem. The apostles did not live in isolated vacuums. In order to predestine them God would have had to violate and interfere with the “free wills” of all sorts of people, and not just those surrounding specific and obvious supernatural events. You have to limit the choices and options of ancestors, enemies and friends of ancestors, descendants, neighbors, etc. You have to guarantee a certain store owner will be at a certain place at a certain time. Because of the choices the apostles made, their grandchildren and their grandchildren’s grandchildren will have their freedom restricted and choices limited, before they are even born. The pagan store owner’s life is mapped out as well. The person who wants to retain libertarian free will and escape God’s Sovereignty in salvation by positing that God only predestines Jewish apostles doesn’t get to retain the free will, nor escape God’s Sovereignty. In fact, in Ephesians chapter 3 God is “making you alive together with Christ”.

• Paul spends a significant portion of chapter 2 showing that there aren’t Jews and Gentiles any more in the New Covenant, but that they are one people. There is only one group. He spends almost all of Galatians doing this, warning the gentiles that they don’t need to become “Jewish”, and chiding those who are belittling the gentiles for not being so. Paul shows in Romans that God has had only 1 plan for 1 group of people, and it doesn’t matter if you’re Jew or Gentile. He closes Romans telling them to accept one another. Keeping all this in mind there’s no way he opens his letter to Ephesus by trying to make the gentile Ephesians feel racially inferior by saying “only the Jewish people and/or apostles receive these blessings. You don’t. All you get is faith and sealing.” Paul would never say that God is partial, or try to create resentment.

• Paul gives thanks in verses 15-16 because the hope to which God has called the Ephesians, verifiable by their faith, is the inheritance (verse 18) first mentioned in verse 11 (before the “break”!) The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of that inheritance (verse 14). There aren’t 2 different inheritances.

• Paul says the purpose of people being chosen is so that they would be “holy and blameless”. This purpose applies to every believer.

• “The hope to which he has called you” (verse 18). The calling is by God, not by man. It is detailed in verses 3-13. It applies to all those who have faith.

CONCLUSION
The view that argues that Paul is saying only the Jewish apostles receive the blessings listed in verses 3-13, to the exclusion of the general church referred to in verses 14 on, is exegetically without warrant. A proper reading shows Paul is teaching the Ephesians that each member of the trinity participated in salvation, and because the Ephesians participated by faith, they were sealed. The Ephesians are loved, blessed, chosen, predestined, adopted, redeemed, forgiven, receive an inheritance, and are holy and blameless before God. To try to pull only 2 of these blessings out of the grand listing, namely “predestined” and “chosen” but leave all the rest is impossible. Contextually this is not Paul’s objective.

The question is asked: How would you respond to an assertion that verses 1-12 is a typical Rabbinical Blessing? …To support the idea that 1-12 is addressed to the Jewish nation?



1) I’d ask him to produce this “typical rabbinical blessing” elsewhere, umm… wait a minute… is this person saying that it was “typical for rabbis” to bless fellow Old Covenant Jews with forgiveness from a Trinitarian Jesus Christ?

2) Even if it sounds like it fits the pattern/formula of a rabbinical blessing, that doesn’t contradict or take away from the main point of Paul: The Father did this, The Son did this, your faith secured it, and now you’re sealed.

3) It was typical for Paul to take Old Testament sayings and phrases and apply them to Gentile believers so they could really know that they were now “in” with Yahweh, who used to be a foreign God to them. I quoted a lot of them in my arguments for Covenant Theology/Church is spiritual Israel.

4) Interestingly enough, if we put this in the context of eschatology, and try to hide the Calvinistic implications, one wouldn’t try to say “this only applies to Jews”. He would agree with the idea that Paul (and other writers) commonly applied blessings, phrases, and sayings from the Old Testament to gentile believers to drive the point home that they were now part of God’s family. But as soon as you show it’s implying Calvinism, he gets very inconsistent and doesn’t like the implication.

5) Any which way, it wasn’t common for Rabbis to bless fellow Jews with reconciliation from a Trinitarian Jesus. And whether or not it fits the formula of Old Testament Jewish blessings doesn’t add to or take away from the overall point I think I clearly made.



Paul doesn’t address the Jewish nation. He addresses the saints who are faithful in Christ Jesus. Several times in Ephesians he calls the gentile believers saints.
And Paul never references anyone but himself in the “we” in verses 1-12. There’s no reason his audience would’ve inserted anyone else besides themselves into the “we”. Paul means “myself and you guys”. It’s up to the naysayer to produce anything in Ephesians that shows that Paul is referencing other Apostles. There’s not a verse. Paul wrote the letter to the church at Ephesus as a single author. He did not send it collectively from himself and Peter, etc. It lists a single author, a single presenter, Paul.
And the incorrect idea that Paul is referencing how he and other apostles were saved (in some sort of different plan of salvation than the people at Ephesus, which is not tenable) doesn’t make any sense because Paul was probably saved years after most of the apostles, so he can’t be teaching that “at one time, we (all us apostles) were saved in this manner (predestination, God choosing), but now, you Christians at Ephesus are saved in this manner… (free will, man choosing). What verse teaches that besides the interpretive glasses the naysayer asks you to put on so it will support his view on the freedom of man? Is he saying that Peter made no decision in salvation because he’s Jewish and therefore included in the “we”?

“We”, “we”, “us”, “we” = God through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit did these things TO/UPON “us/we”. (Emphasis is on things coming from God, going to and being applied to man). God is the enacter.

“and you also” = the people he is writing to who believed, had faith. (Emphasis is on the faith being enacted by man towards God). Man is the enacter, specifically those in his audience who did in fact exercise faith.

Paul would need to be specific because he doesn’t want to imply that every single person at Ephesus is predestined or has genuine faith. He is showing that the specific people in his audience who actually DID believe (and thus were sealed) can validly included themselves in the previous group of the “we” and “us” as the recipients of all those blessings each member of the trinity performed.

“We” were predestined (as a group-invisible, subjective), but since “you also” believed (individually, visible), it seals the deal (objective). You can rightly be called a saint and receive the inheritance. You’re sealed. I’m pleased to hear news of your faith.'
Last edited by ronee on Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:

_postpre
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:35 pm

Post by _postpre » Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:53 pm

Bilbofett and others,

Try the following. It examines the Greek by one knowledgeable in the language:

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/eph1_3.html

The same link says the following about the earliest Christian commentary on the passage:

"Again, what Christ do the following words announce, when the Apostle says, 'That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ?' Now, who could have first trusted — ie., previously trusted — in God, before His advent, besides Jews to whom Christ was previously announced from the beginning? He who was thus foretold, was also foretrusted. Hence, the Apostle refers the statement to himself, that is, to the Jews, in order that he may draw a distinction with respect to the Gentiles, (when he goes on to say:) 'In whom you also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel (of your salvation); in whom ye believed, and were sealed with His Holy Spirit of promise'." (Tertullian, Against Marcion, xvii)"

Brian
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

__id_1497
Posts: 0
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Tertullian

Post by __id_1497 » Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:12 pm

Brian, thanks for the response. If I posted another church father authority with just as much greek knowledge, that disagrees with Tertullian, what then?
And I'm not exactly sure of the point being made here, but does Tertullian take the view that only the Jewish apostles were loved, blessed, chosen, predestined, adopted, redeemed, forgiven, receive an inheritance, and are holy and blameless before God? To the exclusion of the rest of the Ephesian believers?
Last edited by ronee on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:

User avatar
_Homer
Posts: 639
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:43 pm
Location: Brownsville

Post by _Homer » Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:41 pm

Bilbofett,
Please take everything I say in grace and know that sometimes it sounds like I have an aggressive or hostile tone, and I don't mean to.
Thanks for "the heads up" before you launch into your gasconade. I might say that repeated use of words such as "absurd", "silly", "stupid", and "ridiculous", only leave the impression your cause is very weak indeed.

In reference to the "you also" of Ephesians 1:13, Karl Braune writes in Lange's Commentary:

"You also refers to the readers, and places them in antithesis to we"... "The passage is markedly antithetical..."

A. T. Robertrson in "Word pictures in the New Testament" writes:

"You Gentiles (now Christians), in contrast to hemas (we) in v. 12."

A. Skevington Wood in "The Expositor's Bible Commentary":

"You also in contrast to we clearly identifies the Gentile Christians in Ephesus."

Also noting this contrast are F. F. Bruce in "The Epistle to the Ephesians" and Henry Alford in his "New Testament for English Readers".

You wrote:
Paul would never say that God is partial, or try to create resentment.
Here we agree. "God is no respector of persons". I'm glad you are not a Calvinist.

You wrote:
• Paul gives thanks in verses 15-16 because the hope to which God has called the Ephesians, verifiable by their faith, is the inheritance (verse 18) first mentioned in verse 11 (before the “break”!) The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of that inheritance (verse 14). There aren’t 2 different inheritances.
Again we agree. The inheritance Paul spoke of in v. 14 necessarily includes all of the blessings in the inheritance of v. 11.

My original post concerned the possibility that the "we" and "us" in the first part of Ephesians 1 referred to the Apostles and Prophets rather than the "Elect" of the Calvinists, or the Jewish Christians as is commonly supposed. You obviously put a lot of effort into your attempt at exegesis of the passage. You must have "packed a lunch". :)

I find your explanation of the passage very strained and improbable.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
A Berean

Post Reply

Return to “Calvinism, Arminianism & Open Theism”