Death Bed Conversion

Post by **_Homer** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:40 am

This actually happened some years ago. An elderly widow had attended our assembly for several years but had made no commitment to Christ. Apparently her motivation for church attendance was a social one. She became ill and as she neared death, our pastor at the time was trying to get a confession of faith from her. She was reluctant to do so: she wanted to go and be with her husband who she thought had gone to hell. Our pastor was able to convince her that her husband had made a deathbed confession of Jesus and that she ought to also if she desired to be with her husband in the hereafter. She then readily agreed and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Is her conversion valid or invalid due to a wrong motive?

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:30 am

Homer, based on the information you gave, I don't see this as a true conversion.

Post by **_Homer** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:48 am

Allyn,

So you are saying if a person believes in Jesus for the wrong reason (wrong motivation), that faith is unacceptable? Is there a scriptural basis for this position?

I am thinking the great majority of persons come to Christ based on self-interest, as Bernard de Clairvaux suggested long ago. "Save yourselves" seems to be a biblical appeal to self-interest, Acts 2:40, for example. If self-interest is an invalid reason, then most conversions would be invalid, would they not?

If self-interest is not a valid motivation, how would most people know if they are saved? And this then raises the question, how pure must our motivation be?

I ask these questions because death bed conversions are often sought, and little discussed, and do not fall within what appears to be biblical norms for conversion. I have been long troubled by the case I cited, but I am thinking there is no biblical basis for saying the conversion is invalid.

Thoughts anyone?

Post by **_Michelle** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:04 am

Homer,

I know we cannot know for certain what she believed in her heart, but do you think that she really trusted in Jesus? It seems like she was just saying whatever the pastor wanted to hear so that she could gain entrance into the place where he said her husband was.

Post by **_TK** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:54 am

i think that the issue is not "why" she believed but rather "what" she believed. this woman may have found the faith she needed when she was told that her husband believed on his death bed.

i agree with Homer that the motive may be irrelevant as long as a person TRULY believes what is necessary. a motive gives insight into this, but is not conclusive.

TK

Post by **_schoel** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:53 pm

Homer wrote: I ask these questions because death bed conversions are often sought, and little discussed, and do not fall within what appears to be biblical norms for conversion. I have been long troubled by the case I cited, but I am thinking there is no biblical basis for saying the conversion is invalid.

Thoughts anyone?

Does the thief on the cross count as a death bed conversion?

I think the pastor's approach is at best, problematic. I don't think "tricking" someone into conversion is ethical or appropriate.

If we trust God to make the decision because he best knows the heart, does it really matter if we can determine a true conversion or not? Do we gain any Godly value from knowing who's in or out?

I guess I see the question along the same lines of whether or not you can lose your salvation. Does it matter what the answer is?

Dave

Post by **_TK** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:13 pm

reading dave's post, i guess i didnt realize that the pastor was "just joshing" when he told the lady that her husband converted on his death bed. when i first read it, i thought he was telling her the truth. if he was lying about that, then i'm not sure what to think. is that an example of being "all things to all men" for the sake of gospel, even if it means being a liar?

TK

Post by **_Allyn** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:14 pm

Homer,
Simon the sorcerer comes to mind.

Post by **_PAULESPINO** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:24 pm

Our pastor was able to convince her that her husband had made a deathbed confession of Jesus and that she ought to also if she desired to be with her husband in the hereafter. She then readily agreed and accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior

.

" I believe" that we can only discuss this issue but we can't discern the true condition of that woman's heart. I agree with the biblical example that Schoel gave but again it was Jesus who was there and the one who discerned the thief's spiritual condition. For the sake of discussion I will give her a 50/50 chance to go to heaven base on her reaction to the pastor again what I have done is to speculate that is why I'm glad that God remain true to his word that he alone can be our judge.

"Since we can not truely discern another person's spiritual conversion this proves that God stands to be our final judge."

Post by **_Homer** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:47 pm

Thanks everyone! I must clarify my original post. There was no trickery involved; the widow's husband had made a deathbed confession that the pastor was aware of. The widow was unaware of this.
As to why it matters, it can be a great comfort to the remaining family, giving them hope in place of despair.