Jesus is the law

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:16 am

Emmet,

You said:
Perhaps I might invoke military service as an illustration? I can only serve my own draft notice; I cannot fulfill the government's claim on my friend's service, no matter how many years I may spend as a faithful soldier.
I believe this very thing has been done in a past war or two. Haven't people been hired to serve in place of another?

If I may say so, you make many unproven assertions. I suppose we all do. :)
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_kaufmannphillips
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:00 pm

Hello, Homer,
I believe this very thing has been done in a past war or two. Haven't people been hired to serve in place of another?
Indeed people have been, but in the United States this is not allowed at the present.

I do not make the mistake of imagining that analogy or illustration prove anything. The value of the illustration is to sensitize its audience, in its own cultural terms, to the ethic that a relational debt cannot be satisfied by trafficking in lives.

If I may say so, you make many unproven assertions.
You are welcome at any point to request support for any specific truth that you do not feel to be sufficiently manifest in its simply being stated.


Shalom,
Emmet
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun Feb 04, 2007 4:09 pm

In essence, Jesus became the law for us when he fulfilled the law therefore whenever we obey him we have also obeyed all the laws ritual and moral laws.


Well put, i agree :D
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:17 am

Hello, Steve,
Well put, i agree :D
In that case, perhaps you might be willing to comment on how Jesus fulfilled the following portions of the Law:

"And when a man may entice a virgin who has not been betrothed, and has lain with her: he will surely buy her for himself for a wife. If her father may utterly refuse to give her to him: he will pay money like the betrothal of virgins." [Exodus 22:16-17]

"And if a person from the people of the land may sin inadvertently in doing one of the commandments of the LORD (which should not be done), and has become guilty or his sin which he has sinned has been made known to him: then he will bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a perfect female, for his sin which he has sinned; and he will lay his hand upon the head of the sin-offering, and will slay the sin-offering in the place of the offering." [Leviticus 4:27-29]

"And if [a woman] may bear a female [infant]: then she will be unclean two weeks, like in her [menstrual] impurity; and sixty and six days she will abide (concerning the bloods) her purifying." [Leviticus 12:5]

"And the woman with whom a man may lie, with seed of lying: then both will bathe in water and will be unclean until the evening. ... And if a man may {extraordinarily} lie with her, and her [menstrual] impurity has come upon him: then he will be unclean seven days and every bed which he may lie upon will be unclean." [Leviticus 15:18, 24]

"And Aaron will bring the bull of the sin-offering which is for himself, and will make atonement for himself and for his house; and he will slay the bull of the sin-offering which is for himself." [Leviticus 16:11]

"And the daughter of a priest may become [married] to a stranger: she will not eat in an offering of the holy things." [Leviticus 22:12]

And also: Numbers 5:11-31 (which is too lengthy to reproduce here).


How, exactly, did Jesus fulfill such portions of the Law?

Shalom,
Emmet
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Post by _Homer » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:03 pm

Emmet,

I was going to comment, but I'm wondering what it means to you to "fulfill" and "obey" the law?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:23 pm

Emmet, As you know Jesus said he fulfilled the law yet he did'nt elaborate on the details. I'm sure living a sin free life had something to do with it and being the Son of God did too and Paul said regarding the law, Jesus "having nailed it to the cross." Col 2.14
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:46 am

Hello, Homer,

Thank you for your response.
I was going to comment, but I'm wondering what it means to you to "fulfill" and "obey" the law?
I myself do not use the language of "fulfilling" the Law. In the wake of Christian tradition, it has too great a potential for abuse. But with an eye to the Greek diction, to "fulfill" has more than one potential connotation, each drawing from the root sense of filling something up. This sense can be extended to mean accomplishing/carrying out some expectation or obligation. Thus, in the best sense, if I fulfill a command or a request, I have performed it in accordance with its intent (cf. Galatians 6:2).

If the command or request is an incidental one (e.g., "Drive me to the park next Tuesday"), then accomplishing it means that it holds no further claim upon the person who has accomplished it; if the command or request is a standing one (e.g., "Do not park on my lawn"), then its carrying-out is an ongoing matter, and it continues to hold claim upon the performer (insofar as the performer is able to meet the claim).

In the gospel of Matthew, the author generally uses "fulfill" (Greek: pleroo) in a different way, as some manner of prophetic prediction being accomplished or some manner of typological pattern being pointed out. However, such usages are parenthetical by the narrator; when Jesus himself uses pleroo, he never uses it in the formula which the narrator consistently employs for prediction or typology. Accordingly, when Jesus speaks of "fulfilling," there is a broader potential for interpretation than those two options (e.g., Matthew 3:15, 5:17, 23:32).

To obey means to conduct oneself in subjection to and in accordance with some locus of authority.


Such is my first stab at this. I'm not so good at definitions, however :( , so I may need to revise/improve.


Shalom,
Emmet
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Post by _kaufmannphillips » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:21 pm

Hello, Steve,

Thank you for your response.
As you know Jesus said he fulfilled the law yet he did'nt elaborate on the details.
Jesus (as portrayed in Matthew) used unclear language that warrants careful interpretation. Attention to details helps an interpreter avoid wrong conclusions.

...Paul said regarding the law, Jesus "having nailed it to the cross." Col 2.14
The reference here is mishandled.

To begin with, in the Greek text Paul makes no explicit mention of the Law, referring instead to a writ of indebtedness to (indefinite) decrees. Since Paul's audience is predominantly Gentile (q.v., 2:13), it is unlikely that this comment is about the Law in particular - because the Gentiles were never beholden to the Law (unless they sojourned amongst Israel). Where Paul's statement in verses 13 & 14 moves beyond the Gentiles to be inclusive ("us"), it does not focus upon the Law, but upon the state of indebtedness that both Jews and Gentiles were in, in their respective ways. It is this indebtedness that has been nailed to the cross - not the Law itself.

What is more, we should keep in mind that Paul's broader theme in the passage is that Christians should not be constrained by competing claims on their mind and thought. Though Christians may have been beholden to rabbis or philosophers who were their authorities in the past, and even expected to obey their decrees, Jesus' authority has trumped these figures. Christians need not be bound by the human traditions or speculations of worldly authorities.

Thus, when Paul speaks of not allowing others to pass judgment on Christians in certain matters, he is leveraging Christian appeal to the higher authority of Jesus, setting aside concern about worldly authorities - whose decrees might address issues related to the Law (e.g., sabbath-keeping), yet are not themselves Law.

Shalom,
Emmet
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Post by _Homer » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:59 pm

Emmet,
To begin with, in the Greek text Paul makes no explicit mention of the Law, referring instead to a writ of indebtedness to (indefinite) decrees. Since Paul's audience is predominantly Gentile (q.v., 2:13), it is unlikely that this comment is about the Law in particular - because the Gentiles were never beholden to the Law (unless they sojourned amongst Israel). Where Paul's statement in verses 13 & 14 moves beyond the Gentiles to be inclusive ("us"), it does not focus upon the Law, but upon the state of indebtedness that both Jews and Gentiles were in, in their respective ways. It is this indebtedness that has been nailed to the cross - not the Law itself.
I'm not going to say you are wrong in your conclusion, but I'm not sure you are completely right regarding the law. The article "the" would seem to indicate a (system of) law in particular rather law(s) in a general sense. That the Law of Moses was in Paul's mind seems to be indicated by his references to circumcision, and being judged about particular food and drink, festival, new moon, and sabbaths, vs 13-17.
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Post by _PAULESPINO » Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:43 am

Please understand Romans 13:8
" Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.  For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”  Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

It is very clear that love is the fulfillment of the law. We believers in Christ are the one who perform the action of love. We perform the action of love because it is the command of Christ to love therefore when we obey the command of Christ to love we also have fulfilled the law through our love because Paul said our love fulfills the law.
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