Glass of water and O.T. Law analogy

[Guest]

Yes TK, I was referring to this:

you mean "pharisee-ism." i assume when you say "sabbath keeping" you mean the jewish tradition of doing no work, etc on the sabbath as opposed to "going to church."

I used to attend a church in which they teach Tithing. They teach that we will be sinning against God if we don't tithe not only that they even try to scare people by qouting Malachi 3:10.

I together with TK agreed with your definition Paidion.

[Guest]

i am afraid that a great majority of evangelical churches teach that tithing is, at minimum, a strong expectation--mine included. i certainly dont see this ending any time soon. quite frankly, i dont see the problem with this (and i understand the reasons why tithing does not apply to the NT church). 10% is a rather nominal sum to give back to God; my pastor focuses on the blessings that come with giving, as opposed to laying on guilt trips. i understand that all we have is God's and we are simply stewards.

i know that many of you are likely to yell at me, but that's ok. i can take it.

TK

[Guest]

Hello, Paul,

Thank you for your reply.

PAULESPINO said: When I said legalism I was referring to sabbath, tithes and circumcision and perhaps there are others that I'm not aware.

And yet Jesus is said to have endorsed such things: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [Matthew 5:18f. ESV]

I would define legalism differently. Legalism is a perspective that engages the law as its own independent entity, apart from its relational dynamic with God. This perspective is not worried about what God wants, but merely what the law says; it is only mindful of what has been said, and not what the Sayer has intended. For such a person, the Law eclipses God. This mindset can result in one using the form of the law to hide from the will of God, searching for loopholes and pretexts to "justify" substituting one's own will. Of course, such an abuse of the law justifies nothing.

Now, someone who requires sabbath-keeping, tithes, and circumcision of Gentiles because the Law speaks of such things might be called a legalist, since they are engaging the form of the Law without noting that God has not required the practice of its form from Gentiles (as a category of persons).

However, a person who denigrates sabbath-keeping, tithes, and circumcision because they are a part of the Law is also insensitive to the mind and heart of God; such a person also errs by engaging the Law as if it were something apart from interrelation with God.

Shalom,
Emmet

[Guest]

Hello, TK!

TK wrote: i assume when you say "sabbath keeping" you mean the jewish tradition of doing no work, etc on the sabbath as opposed to "going to church."

As a point of diction, let me object that doing no work on the sabbath is not merely "Jewish tradition," but a divinely-articulated requirement of God's covenant with the Jewish community.

Eating latkes and dressing up for Purim are Jewish traditions; abstaining from work on the holyday is obedience.

Shalom,
Emmet

[Guest]

Hello, Paidion,

Paidion wrote: Where a problem lies, if any, is with the position that attempting to follow a particular code of laws, through self-effort, is the way to be acceptable to God.

Perhaps you would not disagree with the proposition that one's effort to follow God's particular code of laws is essential to being acceptable to God?

Shalom,
Emmet

[Guest]

Hi Emmett,

As a point of diction, let me object that doing no work on the sabbath is not merely "Jewish tradition," but a divinely-articulated requirement of God's covenant with the Jewish community

.

You are absolutelty right Emmett but the point I'm making is legalism tradition or not.

[Guest]

Emmet Wrote

And yet Jesus is said to have endorsed such things: "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." [Matthew 5:18f. ESV]

5:17
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Jesus not only was talking about the law, but also the Prophets who predicted the coming of Christ and the fulfillment of the law through Him.

Robin

[Guest]

Hi, Robin,

Thank you for your posting.

Could I trouble you to put more of a fine point on it? I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.

Thank you,
Emmet

[Guest]

sorry, emmett-- slip of the keyboard. i didnt mean to suggest that keeping the sabbath was optional for the Jews. instead of "tradition" i should have said "requirement."

TK

[Guest]

Emmet,
I'm glad to see you posting again.

Hi, Robin,

Thank you for your posting.

Could I trouble you to put more of a fine point on it? I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at.

Thank you,
Emmet

It seemed to me that by quoting Matthew 5:18, you were accreting that Christ viewed the law differently than Christians. However, I don't think Jesus was telling us that the law would continue to be a requirement until heaven and earth passed away, but only until He fulfilled the law. The law is central in my belief, and I recognize Christ as the fulfillment of not only the law but also the prophecies that spoke about Him. That is why I quoted verse 17 so we could see verse 18 in context.

Matthew 5:17-18 NKJV
5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Jesus said in verse 17 that He came to fulfill the law, and in verse 18 He said that not one tittle would pass away until it was fulfilled. I believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, therefore the old passed away, and God established His new covenant with the church. There are requirements to be part of the church but they don't include keeping the laws of tithing, Sabbath keeping, or animal sacrifices.

Robin