Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:34 pm

Much has been made of the possible meanings of the Greek word aionios, used by Matthew to capture the meaning of our Lord in Matt. 25:46 where it is used as an adjective for punishment of the goats and life of the sheep.

Aionios appears some 70 times in the New Testament. Searching Wigram's Greek concordance we find it used nearly 60 times as an adjective for the life of the saved in the hereafter. It is translated as everlasting or eternal in the vast majority of these cases, and can have no other meaning because our life is in Christ (Col. 3:4) and He is eternal.

Four times aionios is used adjectively in reference to persons of the Trinity and must necessarily mean eternal in these cases.

Once, Philemon 15, it speaks of Philemon receiving back Onesimus aionios, translated forever, obviously a figurative use meaning permanently.

There are three instances where it is translated "world" in reference to eternity past, Rom. 16:25, 2 Tim. 1:9, and Titus 1:2.

This leaves us with, as I counted, seven references to the future state of the lost where it is an adjective for punishment, fire, damnation, destruction, and judgement. How is it to be understood in thoses cases? We know when Jesus used it of the sheep in Matthew 25 it necessarily meant eternal. In the same sentence, in regard to the goats, did Jesus mean limited or temporary?

E. B. Pusey wrote: "Any ordinary writer who drew a contrast between two things, would, if he wished to be understood, use the self-same word in the self-same sense. He would avoid ambiguity. If he did not, we would count him ignorant of language, or, if it were intentional, dishonest. I ask 'In what matter of this world would you trust one who in any matter of this world, should use the self-same word in two distinct senses in the self-same sentence, without giving any hint he was so doing?' In none. Find any case in which you would trust a man who did so in the things of men, and then ascribe it to your God in the things of God. I could not trust man. I could not believe it of my God."

Pusey's point is well taken. Would you sign a contract with a man who used words in such a way?

I would challenge any interested in this matter to cite one Greek authority of any reputation who gives as the primary meaning of aionios a meaning of anything other than as translated in the KJV. Indeed, it can not be proven to have a meaning of limited duration in any of the 70 plus times it is used in the New Testament.

And what of the great citidel of the universalist cause, Colossians 1:20, which speaks of the reconciliation of all things. It is argued that "all" is to be literally understood, and necessarily includes the "goats" in Mathew 25, and we must interpret Jesus in the light of what Paul said rather than the reverse. You have this backwards.

If "all" is literal as you say, it must necessarily include Satan and his angels, as your great universalist forebear Origen taught. If not, please show us how you exegete Colossians 1:20.

Matthew 25:46 is a straightforward statement, easy of understanding. Consult the commentaries on Colossians 1:20 and see how many different opinions you find. Then tell us which should guide in interpretation of the other.
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_mdh
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Response to Homer

Post by _mdh » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:06 pm

Homer,

My sense is that you are stuck on this argument over aionios. I am fine if you are convinced that you have resolved this to your satisfaction. It seems to me that you and I and others have argued this point before, and you were not convinced by our arguments. Why must we rehash this? Is it so important to you that we accept your arguments?

Would it do injustice to the text and the arguments Christ is making in Mt 25 if He were using Aionios to mean a quality of something rather than a duration?

Is it possible that the quality of life is being constrasted with the quality of punishment (or perhaps correction)?

If one has "eternal" life now, and it is only in the sense of duration, is it then impossible to die? Doesn't the NT say that we HAVE eternal life? Yet if we depart from the faith, do we not lose this "eternal" life? In other words, is it not the fact that we are IN CHRIST that makes the life "eternal"? So what if the punishment (or correction) is "eternal" only as long as we are "OUTSIDE OF CHRIST"?

It seems to me that there has been an assumption made that our destiny is fixed upon death. This may or may not be true. But I do not think that the scriptures are 100% clear on this.

Homer, when I read your posts it seems to me that you have a theology and worldview that you are comfortable with and that seems consistent to you, and so you find it difficult to see things from other possible perspectives. I could be wrong on this, but that is the perception I have. Things that seem to be clear in scripture to you are not so clear to me, and to some others.

The arguments you make are very common. Do you think those of us who choose to consider other positions are unfamiliar with them? To you they may seem rock solid. To me they do not. From my research I have come across so many arguments on various sides of these debates that I have come to the position that I just can't say for sure. For me, I just have to trust that whatever is true, it is OK because God is good, and I can trust Him.

I find myself wanting to tackle your arguments one at a time, but I am not sure I have the mental energy, and I am not sure there is anyone out there who is not already convinced they know the "truth" already.

My 2 cents.

Mike
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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:57 pm

Would it do injustice to the text and the arguments Christ is making in Mt 25 if He were using Aionios to mean a quality of something rather than a duration?

Is it possible that the quality of life is being constrasted with the quality of punishment (or perhaps correction)?
Mike,
I suppose its possible but seems unlikely. The nouns for each state would seem to indicate the quality, as in life, inheritance, glory, salvation, and redemption and punishment, fire, damnation, destruction, and judgement.

I am not trying to "rehash" the subject but rather present additional information. I think the truth is an important thing; "the truth will set you free". This is a rather important subject to know the truth about.

Homer
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:51 pm

The Bible states over and over again that we are judged according to our works. It never says that we will be judged on whether or not we believe in Christ.
Be careful in using the word "never", FOF. The following passage seems to teach judgment based on faith or belief:

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASB

In the following passage, Jesus teaches that the work of God is to believe into Him:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

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Post by _Father_of_five » Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:58 pm

Paidion wrote:
The Bible states over and over again that we are judged according to our works. It never says that we will be judged on whether or not we believe in Christ.
Be careful in using the word "never", FOF. The following passage seems to teach judgment based on faith or belief:

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASB

In the following passage, Jesus teaches that the work of God is to believe into Him:

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Paidion,

I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out.

I do think it is interesting that the scripture says, "has been judged already." How can this be if the judgment doesn't happen until after the resurrection?

Todd
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:06 pm

I do think it is interesting that the scripture says, "has been judged already." How can this be if the judgment doesn't happen until after the resurrection
Because as long as a person is not in Christ, they are not covered by His blood, and are guilty (i.e. not justified) before God. This will not change until they are covered; even in judgement.
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Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:29 pm

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Todd,

Just so I am clear as to what your position is.

1.You think that the time that the "Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" is present, and was past tense to Paul even though he is writing as if it were future?

2.That the "vengence on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lourd" is actually a guitly conscience and "living in sin" and then going on to be with God for all of eternity after?

3.That the "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" is actually a guilty concious and living in sin in this life and that "everlasting" here means only in this life? In otherwords "everlasting" means temporarily? "Everlasting destruction from His presence" actually means a temporary guilty conscience without His presence and then everlasting life in His presence?

4.The time "when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day" has happened? Even though Paul is speaking as if it were future?

God bless,
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Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:50 pm

Derek,

Where did you get this thing that God's only punishment is a guilty conscience? Have you not read Romans 1? Does that sound to you like God's wrath is only a guilty conscience? What about Rom 13:1-4? What does the ministration of the governing authorities have to do with a guilty conscience? Ask Saddam Hussien what he thinks about that. In his case God's wrath will mean his death - one might even call that "sudden destruction". That's a far cry from a guilty conscience.

Todd
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:22 pm

Ok, then replace "guity conscience" with "harbor(ing) guilt, shame, jealousy, envy, lust, pride, hatred, selfish ambitions, etc." This is what you have said. That doesn't sound like "eternal destruction from the presense of God" in any way imaginable.

Here are the quotes I am talking about:
"But perhaps the unjust, in their worldly prosperity, harbor guilt, shame, jealousy, envy, lust, pride, hatred, selfish ambitions, etc."
When we follow Him, and His example for us, we shall be saved from guilt, shame, envy, wrath, selfishness, bitterness, anxiety, etc.
Do you think that is "eternal destruction from the presence of God"?

I don't think that those passages in Romans are teaching what you think they are. They are part of judgement to be sure, but not the eternal judgement taught by the bible.

Frankly brother, I don't see the point in arguing about this anymore. It's impossible to debate a postion such as yours, becuase with all due respect, it appears to be made up out of thin air, and then imported into the bible. You simply explain away the clear teaching of all of the passages that teach a future judgement. I don't have time to sort all of that out in order to debate it. I don't mean any disrespect, honestly.

I would be interested in seeing your answers to the quesitons in my post about 2Thes. though.

In Jesus,
Derek
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Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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Post by _Father_of_five » Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:39 pm

Derek wrote:I would be interested in seeing your answers to the quesitons in my post about 2Thes. though.
Frankly, Derek, your post was more full of mocking than it had questions. But I will give you an answer anyway.

I admit that this passage is most challenging for my view. But, if you look at the language, I don't think it is necessarily referring to Christ's second coming when all are resurrected. It is not unlike what we read in Matt 24....

Matt 24:30-31
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is the kind of language used to refer to Christ's judgment upon mankind. The Matt 24 passage many people accept is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem. This is God's judgment upon men while they are still living, long before Christ's second coming. It does not refer to any post-death punishment.

I think the same thing could be said about the 2 Thess 1 passage. This is figurative language - the punishment is literal, but the men are still living when they are punished. There is nothing in this passage to say that this judgment happens after the resurrection, which is what the traditional view claims and perhaps also the annihilation view.

As far as it being written in future tense, I give you the same logic that I gave earlier. It could be said of my employer, "he will give to every man his wages on the 15th and the 30th of the month." This too is written in future tense, but he has been doing this for 65 years.

Todd
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