Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

1. Is God either incapable of saving everyone, or is he unwilling?

God is not incapable of saving everyone. He has made salvation available to all men, yet all do not accept it. They are punished because they do not want Him. Not the other way around. He has already shown that He is willing when He sent His Son to die for our sins.

2. Why would God withhold his punishment until it is too late to do anything about it?

God withholds punishment, because He is merciful, and not willing that any should perish (2Pet3:9). Should someone in the face of God and His mercy, rebel against Him until the end, they are merely getting what they want. That being said, I think that God does punish people (on earth) and bring about circumstances that would push them to Himself, but those that continue to hate Him will be judged. That is what the bible says.

3. What purpose could be served by "eternal" punishment?

Justice. (keep in mind that I do not believe in eternal conscious torment).

4. Is it just to punish someone forever for a few years of disobedience?

No. I don't think the punishing lasts forver, only the punishment.

5. How can death be destroyed if most people are annihilated?

I don't see the point of this. If all that are left are those in Christ, death has been destroyed. Death is annihilated right along with everything else.

6. If most people go to hell then isn't Satan the greater victor?

This is one of the more appealing points in favor of universalism. However, I think that the bible teaches that Christ is already the victor, having made a way for all that are willing to be saved (Col 2:15).

7. What about that guy in Timbukto who never hears the Gospel in his lifetime? (this applies to most of mankind who has ever lived)

I don't have a satisfactory answer for this question I'm afraid. This is one of the hardest quesitons for an arminian to answer. Calvinists of course would say that anyone who doesn't get saved are not elect. I am not, as of now, convinced that Calvinism is true, so all I can say is, God is just, and whatever happens to them will be just. I would also add, that all people deserve hell. It is the guilt of sin, that all men are guilty of, that sends one to hell, not the fact that they havin't heard of Jesus.

God bless,

[Guest]

I left two items off of my list.

8. Why would God who said, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you," send His enemies to hell?
9. If it is repugnant to me to think of sending people to a "traditional view" hell, am I more merciful than God who created me in His image? Is the creation more merciful than the creator?

Todd

[Guest]

Well answered Derek. I would concur with pretty much everything you said. All of those questions, while thought-provoking philosophically, do not do enough to convince me that Universalism is a biblical position.

In both the OT and the NT there are extemely clear-sounding statements that the wicked shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. I am yet to see any strong exegetical, biblical evidence why these statements should not be read as absolute statements.

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

8. Why would God who said, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you," send His enemies to hell?

Again, God has shown a greater love than we could ever hope for to his enemies (i.e. us). The greatest love (Jn 15:13).

Rom 5:6-11 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

9. If it is repugnant to me to think of sending people to a "traditional view" hell, am I more merciful than God who created me in His image? Is the creation more merciful than the creator?

Frankly Todd, and I mean no offense, but it seems that the fact that you find this view "repugnant" has more to do with the doctrine you are propounding than the exegesis of scripture. I think it is commendable that you love people so much, but your view does not, in my opinion, comport with what the scriptures teach.

That being said, I think that my answer to question #8 adequately answers this one too. God is perfectly merciful but He is also perfectly just.

The only way these two attributes can be reconciled is on the cross. It is there that God in His great mercy, provided an atonement for all of the sins of the world, making it possible to be in fellowship with Him, and have His forgiveness, while at the same time, not violating His perfect justice. If someone chooses not to accept His mercy, then they will recieve justice.

I don't see how your view reconciles God's mercy with His justice. If it cannot, then it is incoherent, and therefore false.

God bless,

[Guest]

I, too, have trouble with the questions on your list, except #5. Why can't death be destroyed after unbelievers have been annihilated?

To me, if someone is annihilated, they are dead. If death is destroyed then they should be raised. But don't those who believe in annihilation believe that it takes place after the resurrection (after death has been destroyed)? If so, then it makes even less sense because then the dead would be raised only to be destroyed again. It would be much more mericful to let death have its final say. But I don't see it this way.

Also, you say that judgment happens here, during our lifetimes. Is that for both the unrighteous and the righteous?

I believe that judgment takes place during our lifetime for both the just and the unjust. Both are judged by the Law of Christ; namely, that we should love our neighbor as our self, and that we should bear one another's burdens. God is not a respecter of persons - Christians who engage in sinful acts will get punished too. There are some scriptures which indicate that a Christian's punishment may be more severe....

Heb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

2 Pet 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

If so, what does it mean to you to "lay up treasure in heaven?" (Matt 6:20).

Michelle, It could be referring to the spritual blessings we receive in our lifetime. It could also be referring to blessings we receive in the resurrection.

Lastly, I can't see what would be the advantage for a believer in a hostile environment. You know, those people through the centuries, and even now, who suffer imprisonment, torture, and death for their witness. Wouldn't it be better for them to live quietly, do good works when they can, but never claim to follow Christ so they can be spared physical punishment? I know you say that they would give up peace, joy, etc., but at least they would live longer. It would almost seem that we would do them a disfavor to evangelize.

This is an excellent question. Evangelism is very important. Only in Christ can someone have the kind of life that God wants us to have. So many people are totally lost and miserable. God places it in the heart of some people to evangelize and do mission work and they would be very grieved not to do it. Paul said,....

1 Cor 9:16 NIV
Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

Todd

[Guest]

I don't see how your view reconciles God's mercy with His justice. If it cannot, then it is incoherent, and therefore false.

God's justice required a sacrifice for sin. He provided his own sacrifice, namely, Jesus. God's mercy is so great that Christ paid the debt for us all. The same verse you quoted applies here. "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." I quoted two other verses earlier which say that He reconciled the whole world.

The old Covenant had a fault. It required obedience on the part of mankind. The new Convenant solved this problem.

Jer 31:31-34
31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, F23 says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

If the new covenant required the same obedience then none of us would be saved.

Todd

[Guest]

I would agree with Homer, that "every man" in this passage, is "every man" in the house of Israel (i.e. the Church).

The Holy Spirit was not poured out upon "all flesh" on the day of Pentacost.

Derek,

There is one passage in John 5 that I believe strengthens my position; namely, that the Law was written on everyone's heart on the Day of Pentecost. I did not say that everyone received miraculous gifts on the Day of Pentecost, only that they had the Law written on their hearts.

Here is a post from the other thread that explains my view of the John passage.

Todd,
I think I'm understanding you now, I just don't see how it must logically follow that since God overlooked times of ignorance that that means now everyone recieves the law written on thier hearts. In other words, it could just be about those who actually repent and recieve the Holy Spirit and enter into a covenant relationship with God by faith. It it these that recieve the law written on their hearts.

I realize that the common understanding is that only those who are followers of Christ have the Law written on their hearts. The purpose of this thread was to attempt to communicate a different way to look at it - one that is entirely possible (to me anyway) and, if I am correct, leads to different conclusions on many areas of doctrine. First, I did not say that the reason everyone now has the law written in their hearts was because God overlooked times of ignorance. I attributed that to Jeremiah's prophecy in Chapter 31. It was he who said that "everyone" would know him and that it would no longer be necessary to teach anyone. If you take this for what it says then my conclusion makes sense.

There is another scripture in Isaiah 11:1-9 that speaks of a time when everyone will have this knowledge. The last statement says the following:

For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

I realize that most people apply this scripture differently, but it is possible that it could be reinforcing my argument.

But, for me, the following is the clincher. It comes from John 5:24-29. Most people equate this passage with the resurrection at the second coming of Christ, but if you look closely (as I will attempt to show) a different conclusion can be drawn.

John 5:24-25
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

In these first two verses Jesus says that he who hears and believes passes from death to life. In other words, they are awakened from a life that was dead in the graveyard of sin to a new life in Christ. This is a spiritual resurrection - hear and believe (or obey) and awake to a new life. This is the context here - spiritual resurrection, not physical resurrection.

John 5:28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus continues to say that an "hour" is coming in which all those who are "dead" in the graveyard of sin will hear his voice and be awakened. Those who obey will be rewarded and those who do not will be convicted (or punished). I believe this is referring to what happened on the Day of Pentecost when His Spirit was poured out on ALL flesh and everyone heard his voice - and had the law written on their heart. It is not talking about those who are physically dead, it was talking about those who are spiritually dead in the graveyard of sin.

In the first two verses (24-25) only some of the dead (in sin) hear his voice. These are the ones who hear him speak during his earthly ministry before his death. But in the last two verses (28-29) ALL of the dead (in sin) hear his voice. These are everone else in the world who are awakened in their heart to what is truely right and have to choose to obey and be rewarded or disobey and be punished. This is what happened on the Day of Pentecost.

I will point out again though that it was the Holy Spirit that was poured out at Pentacost. Peter quoted the OT and said this is what was predicted, the Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. Yet we know from other letters like Romans 8 that not all have the Spirit of God.

It could be possible that "receiving" the Spirit means that we "hear" the law that is already written on our hearts and obey. In doing so we "receive" the Spirit.

I do agree that God's wrath is being poured out now in people's lives. I think that's what Paul is saying in Romans 1.

I'm glad we aren't totally out of sync. I do really appreciate you taking the time to try to understand what I am saying. God bless you, Sean.

Todd

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Todd,

God's justice required a sacrifice for sin. He provided his own sacrifice, namely, Jesus. God's mercy is so great that Christ paid the debt for us all.

In order for this sacrifice to justify a person, they have to believe. We are justified by faith. In your system, where do people come to faith? At least in traditional universalism people actually believe at some point to recieve this justification.

I disagree with your interpretation of the passage in John 5.

Frankly, I feel like your interpretations of all of these passages are esoteric. Every one is interpreted through this "hell on earth" paradigm. It is hard to debate your position because of this. I feel like I have dealt with all the passages you bring up (exegetically), but we just move on to more afterwards.

I do not see the idea that the "wrath of God" is merely the guilty conscious of Pol Pot, Hitler, child molesters, rapists, and the like who by all means of perception, appear to be just fine with their depravity. They feel guilty and that is the wrath of our perfectly holy God in thier lives?

If you want a picture of the wrath of God, read about the crucifixtion of Christ. Read about the Babylonian captivity or the holocaust of 70ad. That is what it looks like. Not a child molester losing a little sleep in between his conquests of little kids.

God bless you Todd,

[Guest]

If you want a picture of the wrath of God, read about the crucifixtion of Christ. Read about the Babylonian captivity or the holocaust of 70ad.

Derek,

From this statement it seems you are now agreeing with me - that God pours out His wrath during our lifetime. In all three of these items the people who suffered God's wrath were still alive.

And also, what did Paul mean in Romans 1:18-32 when he points out the the wrath of God is already being poured out on the ungodly?

Also, in Romans 13, Paul says that the governing authorities are God's agent to execute his wrath.

Rom 13:1-4
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Todd

[Guest]

Derek,

From this statement it seems you are now agreeing with me - that God pours out His wrath during our lifetime. In all three of these items the people who suffered God's wrath were still alive.

I didn't say that there is no punishment in this life. My position is that the final and eternal punishment spoken of in the bible is not in this life. I was showing what God's wrath looks like with the only examples we have. Examples from this life.

The crucifixtion of Christ is especially relevant when talking about what God's wrath looks like, because that is what His wrath against our sins looks like. Not just letting us "live in sin" and then sending Hitler to heaven with Corrie Ten Boom and Paul and all others who live for Him instead of hating Him.

And also, what did Paul mean in Romans 1:18-32 when he points out the the wrath of God is already being poured out on the ungodly?

Also, in Romans 13, Paul says that the governing authorities are God's agent to execute his wrath.

Rom 13:1-4
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

See above. Again, my position is not that God does not punish people in this life (at least in part). The bible is clear that this happens. But this is not the final, eternal punishment being spoken of.


God bless,