Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

to me, the "offensive" part is the idea that people can do whatever they please and they will be "saved" anyway. what in the world is "the narrow path" for? just so i can have a little peace when my head hits the pillow at night? jesus seemed to warn about the dangers of eating and drinking and being merry. in other words, there was a consequence to living like that. if all will be saved, then why in the world did Jesus have to come and die at all? i dont get it. maybe the problem here, from my standpoint, is "politics." i.e., Todd, your view is extremely "left-wing" or liberal. i am more conservative, so the view you are expressing grates me the wrong way. sorry if it sounded like i was getting personal; i dont intend to! i enjoy reading your posts; you simply havent convinced me yet.

as far as those who have never heard the name of Jesus, let's leave them with God. I trust that He will do exactly the appropriate thing. and i certainly doubt that the appropriate thing is that they will be tormented for all eternity.

TK

[Guest]

Think about what you are saying. You find it offensive that someone believes that God is so loving that he saves us whether or not we know him or follow him? Do you think it is better that God would forever torment or annihilate those who fall short? I believe that our God would not set up such as system. Why would he send his Son to die for mankind only to save a few of them? Is not God powerful enough to save everyone? How could universal salvation "cheapen" what Christ did for us? Actually it goes far beyond the traditional view in which Christ is only able to save a few.

You must assume that men who do not believe actually want to be saved and live with God for eternity. There are "reasonable and good" men however do not desire this which is why they do not believe it is required. My father is one of them. He knows the gospel and understands it and denies it is true and that for no particularly good reason - other than that is not what he wants. What would you have God do with such men if not give them what they insist they want?

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

But you see, the righteous, while in their trials, can have peace with God, can find joy in their struggles, and find rest in their labors, and the love of their family.

This sounds good. Someone dear to me has had a terrible time for the last several years. My wife recently remarked in regard to her plight "I don't see how she can take any more". She lives in another state and for the past several days I had been unable to contact her (she always has her cell phone with her). I feared suicide. Finally this morning I got in touch with her only to find she is very ill (again) and hadn't felt able to talk to anyone. I rather suspect she is finding little joy in her struggles.

The love of her immediate family is little comfort; some of them have treated her very badly, so callously as to be beyond belief. I was stunned to hear of it.

She once had a nice home, a business, and appeared to have a nice family. Now she is homeless, living with a relative. Yet she has been a lifelong faithful Christian. I shudder to think how it might affect her fragile mind to read what you believe to be the truth.

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but my impression is that you believe we are rewarded and punished (maybe) in some subjective(?) way during this life and then all go to heaven(?).

[Guest]

Perhaps I misunderstand you, but my impression is that you believe we are rewarded and punished (maybe) in some subjective(?) way during this life and then all go to heaven(?).

Homer,

What I am attempting to say is that when Christ returns death will be destroyed. This (to me) means everyone who has ever died will be raised to life and there will be no more death. There can be no annihilation or post-resurrection second death or else death has not really been destroyed.

Have you noticed that there is no mention of a judgment in 1 Cor 15? This is probably the most plain spoken description of the resurrection by Paul and why would he leave out an important detail about a great assembly for judgment? I believe it is because it doesn't happen - all judgment with reward and punishment happens before we die.

I am sincerely sorry that your friend is suffering now and that she has been treated poorly by some of her family. But from what you have said she has peace with God, and no one can take that away. She must enjoy the comfort that brings to her soul. And no doubt she has served the Lord and her family well during her lifetime and been blessed for it.

As far as those who are disobedient to God I can only say that I do not want anyone to suffer for even a moment regardless of what they have done. I know that God's compassion on these souls must totally eclipse that of my own. Therefore, the idea of a post-resurrection eternal torment makes no sense to me. It would serve no purpose.

I would like to praise all of you who have challenged me in this (and other) threads on this subject. I take no offense. I am just trying to explain a different way of looking at it.

Todd

[Guest]

Have you noticed that there is no mention of a judgment in 1 Cor 15? This is probably the most plain spoken description of the resurrection by Paul and why would he leave out an important detail about a great assembly for judgment? I believe it is because it doesn't happen - all judgment with reward and punishment happens before we die.

Because Paul is writing to fellow believers in Corinth but there is a judgement against unbelievers after the resurrection in numerous other places. That is how love is defined by Jesus in Matt 23.23 as "justice,mercy and faithfulness." Justice demands we reap what we sow and God is clear about this throughout the bible. Just as eternal torment is an extreme belief so is your position extreme in the other direction.

[Guest]

Because Paul is writing to fellow believers in Corinth but there is a judgement against unbelievers after the resurrection in numerous other places.

But Paul says, "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" (2 Cor 5:10). That means Christians too. There is no mention of it in 1 Cor 15.

Another plain spoken passage about the resurrection is in 1 Thess. Here it is.

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. F5 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

No mention of a great assembly for judgment here either.

By contrast, Peter said that the time for judgment had already come in his time. See this verse.

1 Pet 4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Justice demands we reap what we sow and God is clear about this throughout the bible.

I agree with this. But I say that we reap what we sow during our lifetime through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

Todd

[Guest]

to me, the "offensive" part is the idea that people can do whatever they please and they will be "saved" anyway. what in the world is "the narrow path" for? just so i can have a little peace when my head hits the pillow at night? jesus seemed to warn about the dangers of eating and drinking and being merry. in other words, there was a consequence to living like that. if all will be saved, then why in the world did Jesus have to come and die at all?

TK,

Without Christ no one can be saved - in this life, or after this life. I said that salvation through Christ comes in two parts. The first part is the reconciliation of the world which was accomplished by his death and resurrection.

Col 1:20
and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

2 Cor 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Through this reconciliation he secured the victory over death for the world. Notice that these verses do not say reconciling the believers only, but the world - that's everyone.

The second part of salvation is salvation in life.

Rom 5:10
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Christ's life showed us how to love, to give, and have compassion on others. When we follow Him, and His example for us, we shall be saved from guilt, shame, envy, wrath, selfishness, bitterness, anxiety, etc. Christ wants us to enjoy a fruitful, joyful lifetime. His life showed us the way, and His Spirit, which was poured out on all flesh, will guide us, if we allow it.

The idea of "the narrow path" is that many people will not "allow" the Spirit to guide them but instead get overcome in sin and the punishment that comes with it. He wants us to be saved from that.

Todd

[Guest]

todd wrote:

The idea of "the narrow path" is that many people will not "allow" the Spirit to guide them but instead get overcome in sin and the punishment that comes with it. He wants us to be saved from that.

but again, this ASSUMES that people not on the narrow path are being punished thru their "sinful living." this simply does not comport with our common sense experience.

let me use an example. let's assume that Tiger Woods is not a christian (i have no idea one way or the other). Tiger is at the pinnacle of his profession, making millions and millions of dollars doing exactly what he loves to do-- play golf. he gives much more to charity than i could ever hope to do. he is not an "evil" person per se, i.e you dont see scandals about him in the tabloids like you do many other celebs.

now, if someone like Tiger is going to heaven, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, then how, pray tell, is it advantageous to be a christian? many (most) christians (at least those who like to golf) might willingly trade places with Tiger (even give up their faith) if they knew the end result was the same for both of them. wouldn't they? you will answer no, because being a christian brings God's peace and we are not being "ruined" by sin. but neither is Tiger Woods! In fact, i would say only a very small minority of non-christians are "punished" by their sinfulness, because only a very small percentage do anything to really feel guility about. they simply live their lives, work, enjoy their families, etc. they are not sweating bullets every night trying to get to sleep because they are tormented by their "sin." no, they simply go to sleep. sure there are exceptions, but very few.

for your framwork to work, you have to "prove" that non-christians are punished to the degree they deserve while living. i honestly dont think it is possible for you to do so, simply because we all know plenty of unsaved people who are doing quite nicely.

TK

[Guest]

I know I quote the following passage rather frequently, but I think it settles a lot of our disagreement. It describes future reward and corrective punishment. It is inconsistent with the easy way (Christ covered our sin so that God doesn't see our sin but Christ's righteousness. All you have to do is to trust in His finished work).
It tells us that everyone will be judged according to his works:

Romans 2:6-10

For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality,He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good... for God shows no partiality.

[Guest]

todd wrote:

The idea of "the narrow path" is that many people will not "allow" the Spirit to guide them but instead get overcome in sin and the punishment that comes with it. He wants us to be saved from that.

but again, this ASSUMES that people not on the narrow path are being punished thru their "sinful living." this simply does not comport with our common sense experience.

let me use an example. let's assume that Tiger Woods is not a christian (i have no idea one way or the other). Tiger is at the pinnacle of his profession, making millions and millions of dollars doing exactly what he loves to do-- play golf. he gives much more to charity than i could ever hope to do. he is not an "evil" person per se, i.e you dont see scandals about him in the tabloids like you do many other celebs.

now, if someone like Tiger is going to heaven, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, then how, pray tell, is it advantageous to be a christian? many (most) christians (at least those who like to golf) might willingly trade places with Tiger (even give up their faith) if they knew the end result was the same for both of them. wouldn't they? you will answer no, because being a christian brings God's peace and we are not being "ruined" by sin. but neither is Tiger Woods! In fact, i would say only a very small minority of non-christians are "punished" by their sinfulness, because only a very small percentage do anything to really feel guility about. they simply live their lives, work, enjoy their families, etc. they are not sweating bullets every night trying to get to sleep because they are tormented by their "sin." no, they simply go to sleep. sure there are exceptions, but very few.

for your framwork to work, you have to "prove" that non-christians are punished to the degree they deserve while living. i honestly dont think it is possible for you to do so, simply because we all know plenty of unsaved people who are doing quite nicely.

TK

TK,

This is a very thoughtful question. Let's take your example about Tiger Woods. He indeed does a lot of charitable works and gives some of his time to help others. He seems to be a kind person as far as I can tell from his interviews. What motivates him to do these acts of charity and kindness? Does he do it to put on a show so that he can get more endorsements? I doubt it. I think he probably wants to do so from his heart for totally unselfish reasons. In another thread on this subject titled, "The Law written on our hearts" (http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=1313) I quoted Jeremiah Chapter 31....

Jer 31:33-34
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

We are told here that the Law of God would be written on every man's heart, that all would know Him. This event happened on the Day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out upon all flesh. This is true for Tiger Woods as well as everyone else. So when Tiger, from his heart, feels led to give charitably to others, he is obeying the Law of Christ that is written on his heart. Tiger will be rewarded for this by God with spiritual blessings. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. He works in the hearts of men even though it may be unknown to them. The world is full of people like this. This also answers the question about the person who lives in Timbukto who never hears a preacher or reads the Bible. The Law of Christ is written on his heart, and he, like everyone else "knows" the Lord (according to Jeremiah Chapter 31:34).

So you may say then if that's true why do we need preachers and evangelists or church assemblies. Firstly, it so that the Good News of what Christ has done for us can be spread. Also, it is because we need to encourage one another to love and to good works as it says in Hebrews...

Heb 10:23-24
23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.

Todd