Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

But then the Universalist position has people submitting only after aeons and aeons weeping and wailing and intense torment and torture. Is that "willing"?

Yes, it will be willing, after the correction process is complete. They must come to Christ in submission, just as you and I came. By the way, "torture" or "torment" (as the AV has it) suggests cruelty as in the popular image of demons poking red-hot irons at those in hell. The meaning of the Greek word is closer to "judgment."

God will do whatever it takes to correct all people. In many cases it will be "a severe mercy." He will have work for the perfected saints after His coming. I opine that that work may be to bring the permanent (or everlasting if you prefer) gospel message to those in Gehenna.

[Guest]

He will have work for the perfected saints after His coming. I opine that that work may be to bring the permanent (or everlasting if you prefer) gospel message to those in Gehenna.

Interesting thought! But why would anyone hang around in the lake of fire/ Gehenna any longer than a few mili-seconds? It can't be all that bad if people need to persuaded and cajoled for aeons and aeons before finally caving in and realising that it's best to follow God.

[Guest]

Interesting thought! But why would anyone hang around in the lake of fire/ Gehenna any longer than a few mili-seconds? It can't be all that bad if people need to persuaded and cajoled for aeons and aeons before finally caving in and realising that it's best to follow God.


In Hebrews it says "without faith it's impossible to please God" therefore whoever is in the LOF will not be believing by faith but by sight and presumably would have displeased God. Therefore since we "reap what we sow" these people may have to prove over a period of time that God determines , that they truly desire to abide in Christ. Another words it may not be their choice regarding how long they are there.

[Guest]

FOF, I think you are mistaken in presuming that there will be no future judgment. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that teaches that. And your explanations of scriptures that do teach future judgment seem to require extreme reinterpretation to accomodate your belief.

Paidion,

I realize that my view hinges on the timing of the judgment. My belief is that the judgment began when Christ ascended to his throne. The following scripture strongly supports this idea.

Matt 16:24-28
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

It says that the Son of Man will come with his angels and reward each according to their works (the judgment). He also says that this will happen in the lifetime of some of those standing there.

His judgment is carried out through the work of His Holy Spirit which came on the Day of Pentecost. In the following scripture Jesus explains what the Holy Spirit would do when he came.

John 16:7-11
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

How can the world be "convicted" without a judgment?

Todd

[Guest]

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Todd, Skeptics use this verse to say , look Jesus is a false prophet because he did'nt come back in their lifetime. IMHO "coming in his kingdom" is talking about his ascension into heaven because Dan 7.13 uses the same language from the vantage point from heaven where the Ancient of Days gives the kingdom to the Messiah "coming in the clouds."
I think Steve G. has said "coming in the clouds" could be referring to God's judgement on Jerusalem in 70AD,based on OT figurative language. But either way it does'nt seem to be about his literal second coming with judgement happening in this lifetime. But Rev 20 specifically elaborates that everyone will be resurrected and will be at that time judged by their works and the one's who don't have "life" at the resurrection go into the LOF.

[Guest]

He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

How can the world be "convicted" without a judgment?

Because we are told to judge ourselves in this life so we won't be judged later. We are given the ability to discern sin because we should feel guilty about it and because the law told us what sin is. The way convict is used here means to be made aware of or even to be made to feel guilty about IMO.

[Guest]

IMHO "coming in his kingdom" is talking about his ascension into heaven because Dan 7.13 uses the same language from the vantage point from heaven where the Ancient of Days gives the kingdom to the Messiah "coming in the clouds."

Steve, it could mean his ascension. I was trying to point out that Jesus "came" in the form of His Holy Spirit to execute his judgment.

But Rev 20 specifically elaborates that everyone will be resurrected and will be at that time judged by their works and the one's who don't have "life" at the resurrection go into the LOF.

I have a different view of Rev 20 that supports what I have been saying. Briefly, the "little while" spoken of in Rev 20:3 is referring to the time period between Christ's death and the sending forth of his Holy Spirit - it was a time of darkness after his earthly ministry and before the speading of the Gospel by the Apostles. Here is the parallel explanation in John 16.

John 16:16-22
16 "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father." 17 Then some of His disciples said among themselves, "What is this that He says to us, 'A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'; and, 'because I go to the Father'?" 18 They said therefore, "What is this that He says, 'A little while'? We do not know what He is saying." 19 Now Jesus knew that they desired to ask Him, and He said to them, "Are you inquiring among yourselves about what I said, 'A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me'? 20 Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. 21 A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

According to Rev 20:7 Satan has been loosed for this "little while" to deceive the nations. This is because the Savior has been crucified and the Light is no longer among them. But look what happens next. Fire comes down from heaven (v.9) and devours Satan and his armies. This is speaking of the Holy Spirit which came down from heaven on the Day of Pentecost with the Gospel message. Remember that John the Baptist said that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire. This fire is the conviction of the Holy Spirit that I quoted earlier. Being cast into the LOF refers to the punish one suffers (in life) as a result of this conviction.

So you see there is another way to interpret this which supports the "judgment now" view.

Todd

[Guest]

27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Hi Todd,

I think it is much more consistent with the rest of scripture to see this as speaking of the judgment on Jerusalem in 70AD. I don't think this supports your view strongly at all.

Jesus says almost the same thing in Matt. 24:30,34, about the same event.

Mat 24:30,34 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory...Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."


God bless,

[Guest]

<b>Paidion said:</b>

Both the eternal torment view and the annihilation view make Satan the wiinner. Probably fewer than one out of a thousand people who ever lived belong to Christ. But 1 Corinthians 15 states that Christ must reign until all things are put under His feet. This will not be a forcible submission. That would be a hollow victory indeed. This will be a willing submission.

Hi Paidion,

1 Cor. 15 doesn't say anything about a "willful submission". It says that God will put all things under His feet.

Even if that's not the case, if all but those that are in Christ are destroyed, only those that are left will willfully submit anyway.

Surely no one can praise the Father and the Son in this way by force!
Why would the Father or the Son want hypocritical praise when the Son so strongly denounced the hypocrisy of the Pharisees?

Why would this (Rev. 5) rule out annihilationism? All who are left will praise HIm willfully. Every single one.

Quote:
But then the Universalist position has people submitting only after aeons and aeons weeping and wailing and intense torment and torture. Is that "willing"?

Yes, it will be willing, after the correction process is complete. They must come to Christ in submission, just as you and I came. By the way, "torture" or "torment" (as the AV has it) suggests cruelty as in the popular image of demons poking red-hot irons at those in hell. The meaning of the Greek word is closer to "judgment."

I agree with Ely on this point. Even if hell is not a place of torment and what have you, the point is it took hell to bring them around. To me it's the same thing over a greater period of time. Forced submission-and hypocrytical as a result.

[Guest]

I agree with Ely on this point. Even if hell is not a place of torment and what have you, the point is it took hell to bring them around. To me it's the same thing over a greater period of time. Forced submission-and hypocrytical as a result.

A lot of believers went through their own personal hell in this life to come around. It's not human nature to submit to God unless someone has a life changing crisis.
Also when Paul says God will put "all things" under his feet , somehow it does'nt sound like "all things after 95% is annihilated."