Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

He will (future tense) judge the world on this day. This too, is speaking of a future "day".

Derek,

I will agree that the scriptures you quoted give the appearance that the Judgment is yet future. It could be a warning to those who are entangled in sin to repent, that God's judgment upon them is nigh (not after death, but near while they still live). Think of this scripture,

1 Thess 5:1-5
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

According to the traditional view sinners have "Peace and safety" their whole life. Where is the sudden destruction? Thousands of years have passed without any punishment. But, according to my understanding, this is what Romans Chapter 1 is referring to. God's wrath is poured out swiftly, like a thief in the night, while the sinner is still alive.

Rom 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

This is not some future event - it is happening now, while men still live.

John 12:31-32
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

Todd

[_Derek]

1 Thess 5:1-5
1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

They say everthings fine, not realizing that sudden destruction comes upon them when the day of the Lord comes, "like a theif in the night", or suddenly, unexpected.

This goes right along with what Peter says:

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Even here he is talking about the day as if in the future:

"But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief."

When this day comes, the brethren need not worry, they are not in darkness.

Rom 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

This is not some future event - it is happening now, while men still live.

John 12:31-32
31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

Certainly their is a sense in which those that are not in Christ are condemned already (Jn. 3:18).

The wrath of God which is "revealed from heaven" (Rom. 1:18) "remains on those" that do not "obey the Son" (Jn. 3:36).

In no way is this the final judgement spoken of in scripture however, but is the "legal status" of those that will one day be judged. They are condemned, and if they do not repent before this day, they will have to face the judge, and thier fate will depend upon whether or not they are in Christ or not.

God bless,

[Guest]

Again and again Rev. 22:17 is brought up as support for the universalist position when it is demonstrably proven that all things described in Revelation are not sequential. Not only that, a book written in figurative, apocalyptic language is used to interpret unambiguous statements elsewhere in scripture.

Clearly much of Rev is not sequential yet most scholars would agree that from the great white throne judgement on, would in fact be sequential and if that's true then Rev 22.17 applies to people in the LOF.
It's interesting that we have a lake of fire instead of a pit of fire or a dungeon or prison because a lake is easy to get in and out of. And we find in Rev 21.25 "it's gates shall not be shut at all" referring to New Jerusalem meaning people can come in and out freely.
It's good that you referred to figurative language in Rev because IMO that's what the fire represents , a purification process. In fact the word translated as fire is "pur" from which our english word "pure" comes from.

[Guest]

Derek,

You have done a very good job of explaining the traditional view. I, however, do not believe this view is correct because the conclusions just don't make sense (at least, not to me). Here are some of my objections to the traditional view.

1. Jesus said he came to "seek and to save that which is lost." If the majority of mankind will experience everlasting punishment in hell then Jesus did not fulfill his mission and Satan is the winner in the end.
2. How can death be destroyed at Christ's coming if only Christians enjoy eternal life?
3. How can it be just for someone who lives in Timbukto and lives their entire life and never hears the gospel, to suffer eternity in hell?
4. How can a God, who is Love, and says that we should, "love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you" not do the same thing himself?

I have discovered an alternative view that solves these issues. I prefer to believe that God truly is Love and that Christ truly is the Savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10).

Todd

[_Derek]

You have done a very good job of explaining the traditional view.

By the way, I actually don't hold the eternal torment view. I take the conditional immortality, or anihilationist view.

I, however, do not believe this view is correct because the conclusions just don't make sense (at least, not to me). Here are some of my objections to the traditional view.

1. Jesus said he came to "seek and to save that which is lost." If the majority of mankind will experience everlasting punishment in hell then Jesus did not fulfill his mission and Satan is the winner in the end.

First of all, not all who are lost want to be found. Christ has fulfilled His mission in making salvation available to all who will have it. He will win, because He will destroy death, the devil and hell and all of creation will worship and adore Him for eternity.

2. How can death be destroyed at Christ's coming if only Christians enjoy eternal life?

See above.

3. How can it be just for someone who lives in Timbukto and lives their entire life and never hears the gospel, to suffer eternity in hell?

Not sure about this one. This is one that would be so easy if I were a Calvinist. All I know is, God is just. And of course, I don't believe they will suffer for eternity.

4. How can a God, who is Love, and says that we should, "love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you" not do the same thing himself?

That's a good point, however, I would say that sending His Son to die for His enemies (Rom. 5:10) so that they can be saved is Him "doing the same". There is no greater love than this (Jn 15:3). He never rejects anyone that desires to be saved.

I have discovered an alternative view that solves these issues. I prefer to believe that God truly is Love and that Christ truly is the Savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10).

I would say the same thing about my view.

God bless brother,

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

1. Jesus said he came to "seek and to save that which is lost." If the majority of mankind will experience everlasting punishment in hell then Jesus did not fulfill his mission and Satan is the winner in the end.

How many were saved with Noah during the flood? And how many who wandered in the desert reached the promised land? And were a majority of the Jews saved or only a remnant? Was God, in your mind, a "loser" in all these cases? And what of Jesus' statement about the narrow path and the few that will find it? Does it mean Jesus did not "fulfill His mission", considering He predicted not many would follow Him?

[Guest]

Todd,

You said:

1. Jesus said he came to "seek and to save that which is lost." If the majority of mankind will experience everlasting punishment in hell then Jesus did not fulfill his mission and Satan is the winner in the end.

How many were saved with Noah during the flood? And how many who wandered in the desert reached the promised land? And were a majority of the Jews saved or only a remnant? Was God, in your mind, a "loser" in all these cases? And what of Jesus' statement about the narrow path and the few that will find it? Does it mean Jesus did not "fulfill His mission", considering He predicted not many would follow Him?

Homer,

This is not the same thing. These events which you bring up do not deal with eternity. Even in my view many, if not most, people will live and die without experiencing the blessings God gives to those who follow him. I believe the parallel to these stories would be the spritual death experienced by those who are overcome by sin and the punishment (in life) that accompanies it. But this is why we need a Savior because mankind will continually falter as a whole - even Christians stumble and are punished (God is no respecter of persons). Did He not say that "I will be merciful to their transgressions, and their sins and iniquities I will remember no more?" This is the only way that we can be saved - Christ died for all of mankind.

Todd

[Guest]

First of all, not all who are lost want to be found. Christ has fulfilled His mission in making salvation available to all who will have it. He will win, because He will destroy death, the devil and hell and all of creation will worship and adore Him for eternity.

Derek,

So do you believe then that death can be destroyed yet some people are annihilated? And do you believe that death can be destroyed yet some people are permanent residents of the "second death?" If either of these is true then death is not truly destroyed.

In my view, the "second death" is what the Bible calls being "dead in sin" (Eph 2:1,5, Eph 5:14, Col 2:13, 1 Tim 5:6). Those who abide there are being punished while they live. Christ, our Judge, suffers us to be punished as a call to repentance.

Todd

[Guest]

FOF, I think you are mistaken in presuming that there will be no future judgment. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that teaches that. And your explanations of scriptures that do teach future judgment seem to require extreme reinterpretation to accomodate your belief.

Though all of God's judgments are remedial, some of them are very severe. Certainly age-to-age correction in Gehenna is severe indeed. Our Lord warned that it is better to enter into life maimed or with the loss of an eye, than it is to be perfectly healthy and enter Gehenna.

Many people are rebels, and will hold out for a long time in their obstinacy. Jesus said the "goats" would go to age-to-age correction. That's a long time! John, in Revelation, spoke of some being tested for ages of ages. I don't know how long an age is, but some say it's 1000 years. I that is true, then an "age of ages" is one million years. So some will be there for millions of years!

Both the eternal torment view and the annihilation view make Satan the wiinner. Probably fewer than one out of a thousand people who ever lived belong to Christ. But 1 Corinthians 15 states that Christ must reign until all things are put under His feet. This will not be a forcible submission. That would be a hollow victory indeed. This will be a willing submission.

John in his vision at Patmos heard

every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might for ever and ever!" Revelation 5:13

Surely no one can praise the Father and the Son in this way by force!
Why would the Father or the Son want hypocritical praise when the Son so strongly denounced the hypocrisy of the Pharisees?

[Guest]

But 1 Corinthians 15 states that Christ must reign until all things are put under His feet. This will not be a forcible submission. That would be a hollow victory indeed. This will be a willing submission.

But then the Universalist position has people submitting only after aeons and aeons weeping and wailing and intense torment and torture. Is that "willing"?