Sin and Salvation
Sin and Salvation
I have a simple question that I would like some feedback on.
Is thinking that you can lose salvation by demerit (by sinning) equivalent to the system that Paul condemns in Galatians 3 and tantamount to salvation by works?
Or spin another way, if a Christian starts to believe that salvation can be lost through a sin on their part does that imply they have fallen away from the faith and are now following a false Gospel and are lost?
Feedback appreciated,
Brian
Is thinking that you can lose salvation by demerit (by sinning) equivalent to the system that Paul condemns in Galatians 3 and tantamount to salvation by works?
Or spin another way, if a Christian starts to believe that salvation can be lost through a sin on their part does that imply they have fallen away from the faith and are now following a false Gospel and are lost?
Feedback appreciated,
Brian
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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those who believe that "once saved always saved" is not a biblical doctrine generally do not believe that one can lose their salvation simply by "sinning." this can't be true because all christians sin. heaven would be an empty place if sin "disqualified" those who are truly born again.
in order to lose one's salvation, it seems from the scriptures that a "falling away" from the faith is required, not merely sinning. sinning may indeed be a symptom of falling away, but it seems that a person has to also lose their faith as well. in other words, in order to lose one's salvation it would seem that a person would have to stop believing, in an actual sense. but then what about those who say they believe but live in habitual unrepentent sin? in my view, they dont have the type of belief required to attain to salvation. in other words, true belief produces the fruit of the spirit.
TK
in order to lose one's salvation, it seems from the scriptures that a "falling away" from the faith is required, not merely sinning. sinning may indeed be a symptom of falling away, but it seems that a person has to also lose their faith as well. in other words, in order to lose one's salvation it would seem that a person would have to stop believing, in an actual sense. but then what about those who say they believe but live in habitual unrepentent sin? in my view, they dont have the type of belief required to attain to salvation. in other words, true belief produces the fruit of the spirit.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
TK,
Thanks for your response. For the record, I agree with what you wrote. However, I worded my question carefully to be very specific.
Is thinking that salvation can be lost (by committing a specific sin) congruent with the Galatian heresy? Is a once born-again Christian now lost if they believe that a certain sin in their life would cause them to lose their salvation?
Thanks.
Brian
Thanks for your response. For the record, I agree with what you wrote. However, I worded my question carefully to be very specific.
Is thinking that salvation can be lost (by committing a specific sin) congruent with the Galatian heresy? Is a once born-again Christian now lost if they believe that a certain sin in their life would cause them to lose their salvation?
Thanks.
Brian
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Brian,
I agree with TK's answer, and it represents, I think, the view of the majority of thinking Christians who see no biblical warrant for the doctrine of unconditional security.
If you wish an answer to your specific questions (which may be hypothetical, rather than relating to known cases), I will address your questions as you worded them:
You wrote:
"Is thinking that salvation can be lost (by committing a specific sin) congruent with the Galatian heresy?"
No. The Galatian heresy was the attempt to merge the two covenants—that is, to acknowledge the coming of Christ, but to retain the religious rituals of the Old Covenant—e.g., circumcision (Gal. 5:2-4) and holy days (Gal.4:10-11). The teaching that those who continue living in sin will be lost is not something Galatians is attempting to refute, but, on the contrary, is explicitly affirmed there (Gal.5:19-21; 6:8).
You wrote:
"Is a once born-again Christian now lost if they believe that a certain sin in their life would cause them to lose their salvation?"
Again, the answer is no. Believing that you can lose your salvation (whether this is correct belief or not) is not the same thing as actually losing it. The forfeiture of salvation would come, if at all, as a result of abandoning Christ, not from believing certain theories about hypothetical causes of apostasy.
I agree with TK's answer, and it represents, I think, the view of the majority of thinking Christians who see no biblical warrant for the doctrine of unconditional security.
If you wish an answer to your specific questions (which may be hypothetical, rather than relating to known cases), I will address your questions as you worded them:
You wrote:
"Is thinking that salvation can be lost (by committing a specific sin) congruent with the Galatian heresy?"
No. The Galatian heresy was the attempt to merge the two covenants—that is, to acknowledge the coming of Christ, but to retain the religious rituals of the Old Covenant—e.g., circumcision (Gal. 5:2-4) and holy days (Gal.4:10-11). The teaching that those who continue living in sin will be lost is not something Galatians is attempting to refute, but, on the contrary, is explicitly affirmed there (Gal.5:19-21; 6:8).
You wrote:
"Is a once born-again Christian now lost if they believe that a certain sin in their life would cause them to lose their salvation?"
Again, the answer is no. Believing that you can lose your salvation (whether this is correct belief or not) is not the same thing as actually losing it. The forfeiture of salvation would come, if at all, as a result of abandoning Christ, not from believing certain theories about hypothetical causes of apostasy.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
I also would answer "no" to both questions. Believing the false view that you will "be lost" if you commit a particular sin, and actually being in a state of having fallen away from Christ are two different matters.
I think that understanding how one falls away from Christ, lies in understanding how we become a disciple in the first place. To become a disiple of Christ, we had to "take up our cross and follow Him", that is, die to the self-life, and submit ourselves to the authority of Christ. Having done that, if we reverse the process, and take our lives back into our own hands, and become self-serving again, we are back to where we were before becoming a disciple.
Hebrews 3:14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. RSV
I think that understanding how one falls away from Christ, lies in understanding how we become a disciple in the first place. To become a disiple of Christ, we had to "take up our cross and follow Him", that is, die to the self-life, and submit ourselves to the authority of Christ. Having done that, if we reverse the process, and take our lives back into our own hands, and become self-serving again, we are back to where we were before becoming a disciple.
Hebrews 3:14 For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. RSV
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Thanks Steve and Paidon,
A Pastor in a movement of Churches that I'm currently associated with wrote the following in a private email:
I have encountered many Christians who fear, in the back of their minds, that if they sin too much (and cross some undefinable line), they will loose their salvation. So, in essence, they think maintaining salvation requires works. This may not be their "official" doctrinal stance--but it is the wrestling of their soul.
He thinks this is tantamount to the system that Paul condemns in Galatians. But, if I'm reading you correctly, you would not believe that these Christians necessarily believe that maintaining their salvation requires works? Right?
Tell me what it would look like, then, for a Christian to fall (away from Christ) toward a works oriented salvation?
Thanks,
Brian
A Pastor in a movement of Churches that I'm currently associated with wrote the following in a private email:
I have encountered many Christians who fear, in the back of their minds, that if they sin too much (and cross some undefinable line), they will loose their salvation. So, in essence, they think maintaining salvation requires works. This may not be their "official" doctrinal stance--but it is the wrestling of their soul.
He thinks this is tantamount to the system that Paul condemns in Galatians. But, if I'm reading you correctly, you would not believe that these Christians necessarily believe that maintaining their salvation requires works? Right?
Tell me what it would look like, then, for a Christian to fall (away from Christ) toward a works oriented salvation?
Thanks,
Brian
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
hi brian--
i understand what you are saying-- a person who believes that a person can lose their salvation seems to be saying that works indeed matter.
i would submit that this is an illusion to some degree. those who do not believe in eternal security (at least the ones at this forum like steve and paidion and more recently, me) do not believe that works "save" us, or maintain our salvation, for that matter. i personally believe that i am saved by grace through faith and that it is not of works (eph 2:8,9). that being said, good works are a NECESSARY outworking and evidence of a truly converted person. does doing the good works KEEP us saved? nope. but not doing them, or the things that Paidion described, is certainly evidence that we were not truly converted in the 1st place, or that we became unconverted due to the loss of true faith.
this is a far different matter than believing, as the galatians were persuaded to believe, that one must be circumcised in order to be saved. this is ADDING something to the free gift of salvation. it's throwing works into the equation. this formula, if you will, will not yield the correct answer, just as adding something to a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen molecules will not result in water. if a person puts their faith in something other that Jesus for their salvation, it would seem they are not truly saved. of course this seems like a hard thing, especially for those like roman catholics who seem to put a lot of faith in other things (baptism, taking the eucharist, etc) for their salvation. i struggle with this because many of my wife's family are RC.
if i am truly saved because i put my faith in christ alone, then i dont lose my faith by believing an untrue collateral doctrine. let's face it, there are many on this forum who are true christians but who also believe quite differently about colllateral matters (eschatology, age of the earth, how god's sovereignty works, etc). we cant all be right. a person who truly believes they can lose their salvation by sinning may be right (if they sin unrepentedly and habitually). but if they sin unrepentently and habitually, it is likely because they do not have true faith. if they think they can lose their salvation simply by sinning now and then, like we all do, then they are simply mistaken, not lost.
TK
i understand what you are saying-- a person who believes that a person can lose their salvation seems to be saying that works indeed matter.
i would submit that this is an illusion to some degree. those who do not believe in eternal security (at least the ones at this forum like steve and paidion and more recently, me) do not believe that works "save" us, or maintain our salvation, for that matter. i personally believe that i am saved by grace through faith and that it is not of works (eph 2:8,9). that being said, good works are a NECESSARY outworking and evidence of a truly converted person. does doing the good works KEEP us saved? nope. but not doing them, or the things that Paidion described, is certainly evidence that we were not truly converted in the 1st place, or that we became unconverted due to the loss of true faith.
this is a far different matter than believing, as the galatians were persuaded to believe, that one must be circumcised in order to be saved. this is ADDING something to the free gift of salvation. it's throwing works into the equation. this formula, if you will, will not yield the correct answer, just as adding something to a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen molecules will not result in water. if a person puts their faith in something other that Jesus for their salvation, it would seem they are not truly saved. of course this seems like a hard thing, especially for those like roman catholics who seem to put a lot of faith in other things (baptism, taking the eucharist, etc) for their salvation. i struggle with this because many of my wife's family are RC.
if i am truly saved because i put my faith in christ alone, then i dont lose my faith by believing an untrue collateral doctrine. let's face it, there are many on this forum who are true christians but who also believe quite differently about colllateral matters (eschatology, age of the earth, how god's sovereignty works, etc). we cant all be right. a person who truly believes they can lose their salvation by sinning may be right (if they sin unrepentedly and habitually). but if they sin unrepentently and habitually, it is likely because they do not have true faith. if they think they can lose their salvation simply by sinning now and then, like we all do, then they are simply mistaken, not lost.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
We can argue our theories 'til the cows come home but there is no explaining away passages such as 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21, as Steve has noted.
Jesus also informed us repeatedly unless we forgive others, God will not forgive us. He could not have been more clear about this; see the parable of the unmerciful servant. Yet I heard Greg Laurie say on radio "He didn't really mean it"! Didn't fit with the theory, you know.
Jesus also informed us repeatedly unless we forgive others, God will not forgive us. He could not have been more clear about this; see the parable of the unmerciful servant. Yet I heard Greg Laurie say on radio "He didn't really mean it"! Didn't fit with the theory, you know.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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A Berean
- _brody_in_ga
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Homer wrote:We can argue our theories 'til the cows come home but there is no explaining away passages such as 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21, as Steve has noted.
Jesus also informed us repeatedly unless we forgive others, God will not forgive us. He could not have been more clear about this; see the parable of the unmerciful servant. Yet I heard Greg Laurie say on radio "He didn't really mean it"! Didn't fit with the theory, you know.
I agree with you Homer.
It is much more easy to accept what the text says, rather than try to explain it away.
I posed a question to a Calvinist in regards to Matt 18 where Jesus tells Peter that if he didn't forgive his Brother, he would not be forgiven( delivered to the tormenters)...
His reply was "This is a hypothetical situation, and it is not possible because Peter was elect!"
Crazy stuff man.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29
Hebrews 12:29
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"And whenever you stand praying , if you have anything against anyone , forgive him , that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses." Mark 11.25
Does'nt forgiving anyone include forgiving yourself therefore if you are convinced a particular sin can cause you to lose your salvation are you guilty of not forgiving yourself? And if you won't forgive yourself then according to this verse you won't be forgiven.
Does'nt forgiving anyone include forgiving yourself therefore if you are convinced a particular sin can cause you to lose your salvation are you guilty of not forgiving yourself? And if you won't forgive yourself then according to this verse you won't be forgiven.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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