Luke 12:33

[Guest]

Paidion,

After my initial 10 second rise in blood pressure I recognized the familiar melodious sound of the sarcastic bard of the north to which we have all become accustomed. I appreciate your comments and also find one of the difficulties with this type of correspondence to be the limitation on not hearing voice tone, inflection, rhythm, etc.

I have a practical question to ask about Luke 12:33 but will wait a couple days until you gentlemen have had the opportunity to discuss Homer's and Christopher's questions. To do so now would possibly sidetrack a good discussion.

regards,

livingink

[Guest]

Homer:

I will again ask a question I asked early on in this thread: Where do we find a precept in scripture for communal ownership of property and any other form of goods? An example does not necessarily establish a doctrine.

I've never thought of it as a precept, that is, as a rule of principle governing behaviour. I understood communalism as the natural (perhaps I should say "spiritual") consequence of the love the first disciples had for Christ and for each other.

Having said this, I may have to learn that the practice does indeed spring from a precept taught by Christ. Livingink intends to ask a question later regarding the following words of Jesus addressed to His "little flock", that is, to His disciples:

Sell your possessions, and give alms; provide yourselves with purses that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. Luke 12:33

Sounds a bit like a precept to me.

Christopher:

But how would [communal congregations within a city church] square with this?
2 Cor 9:6-8
6 But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
NKJV

In English, the "he" and "his" would settle the issue, and prove that Paul is speaking to individuals. However, in Greek, the subject of 3rd person singular of a verb may be "he", "she" or "it", where a personal pronoun is not used.

Also the first "he" in the English translation is not "he" at all, but is actually "the one". That one could refer to a congregation. I will attempt to translate the passage as literally as possible:

Now this , the one sowing sparingly also will reap, and the one sowing into blessings also will reap blessings. Each one as it chose in the heart, not out of grief or out of necessity; for God loves a joyful giver.

The bracketed words, "I say", are supplied and not in the Greek text.
The verb "chose" (past tense) is the third person singular, and could mean either "he chose", "she chose", or "it chose." Which it is can be determined only by context.

If there were a number of communal congregations in the church at Corinth, as I think was the case, then Paul, when addressing the whole Corinthian church, may have been urging each of these congregations to give abundantly, and to reap blessings in consequence.

[Guest]

If I could ask you to review Homer's original post and reference the entire 12th chapter of Luke, I'd like to also ask everyone's advice on a practical matter that may help me apply the information from the previous posts.

In Luke 12:13 a man asked Jesus to speak to his brother about dividing their inheritance. My wife , 2 sisters and 1 brother have been attempting to divide an inheritance for at least 10 years. The brother bought the interest of 2 other siblings and now has a 50% share. His position essentially has become one where he thinks he should get the vast majority of the property or that the property be sold. He would not negotiate with the sisters and, by his language and behavior, would obviously not submit to any decision recommended by a church.

Since my wife is disabled, her parents built her a small home on the property. After we married, we lived there until about a year ago at which time we could no longer find people to stay with her through the daytime. She helps me in my business by doing the paperwork but can't physically open file drawers or walk. Uses a ventilator part-time for breathing so her condition is a little complicated and not for the faint of heart. We became guilty of wanting to hang on to the house and land to the point that I now believe they were hindering our relationship with God. More than once I prayed that he'd find a way to settle this and I already had a division of the land in mind. Of course, since I had already done the thinking, all God had to do was rubber stamp my plan and it would be fair to all. So, I was covetous as in 12:15.

We moved to one of my clinics. We now live in the back of the room behind a curtain. Our clothes are in suitcases, boxes, hanging on the wall. We don't have t.v. We do have XM radio. No frills living in a tent. And it's great! Less exhaustion from the travel and more time to do Bible study and paperwork from the business. More time to be together. As in 12:31, we have been seeking the kingdom of God and God has been providing. While we still go home on weekends, we could now tolerate a sale of the property. That appears to be scheduled for the Spring by order of the local court. I still believe a fair division was available but was not the will of the court.

I know this is tough with so little information, but would you sell it (12:33)if given the property around the house, see it as all these things added unto you(12:31) or something else if it really weren't your treasure(12:34)? At auction, would you attempt to buy some of it?

We currently have part ownership of the land. This includes another house still in good repair as well as 3 other buildings in various stages of deterioration. Since I argued earlier in this thread that all property belonged to God, do I have a responsibility to try to keep these buildings from deteriorating further as the steward in 12:42-44 may have been expected to do or would I be wasting God's money by trying to maintain rundown buildings that the next owner may tear down?

Thanks for your consideration.

livingink

[Guest]

Livingink,

Is your brother-in-law a Christian, or claiming to be one?

The brother bought the interest of 2 other siblings and now has a 50% share. His position essentially has become one where he thinks he should get the vast majority of the property or that the property be sold.

Are you saying that your brother-in-law and wife are each now entitled to half the estate?

we could now tolerate a sale of the property. That appears to be scheduled for the Spring by order of the local court. I still believe a fair division was available but was not the will of the court.

Am I correct in assuming the entire property is to be sold with the proceeds to be split between your brother-in-law and wife?

would you sell it (12:33)if given the property around the house, see it as all these things added unto you(12:31) or something else if it really weren't your treasure(12:34)?

It seems to me the point of the story Jesus told in Luke 12 about the rich man building more barns is that the man was a fool, i.e. had no regard for, or acknowledgement of God, and cared nothing for his fellow man. You should do as the Spirit leads. As with Annanias and Saphira, they were free to do with their property as they wished. They lied, I believe, in an attempt to impress ("be seen by") men as something they were not.

At auction, would you attempt to buy some of it?

Would it be wrong for any other Christian to buy it? If not, why would it be wrong for you?

We currently have part ownership of the land. This includes another house still in good repair as well as 3 other buildings in various stages of deterioration. Since I argued earlier in this thread that all property belonged to God, do I have a responsibility to try to keep these buildings from deteriorating further as the steward in 12:42-44 may have been expected to do or would I be wasting God's money by trying to maintain rundown buildings that the next owner may tear down?

I can't imagine God cares one way or another whether you repair the decrepit buildings, but that's just my 2 cents.

My God bless you in this matter, your are not at all like the rich fool; you obviously care what God thinks.

[Guest]

Thanks, Homer. I'll say the brother-in-law doesn't claim to be a Christian and probably wouldn't give anyone that false impression by his behavior and language. He once told my wife that she missed a good opportunity to die when she was very ill. Originally there were 6 siblings involved and he bought the interest of 2. He owns 3/6 and the other 3 siblings own 1/6 each. He has had 3 strokes and is now physically blind and in poor health. We pray for him. The proceeds of an auction would be split into 6 equal shares and divided accordingly. I do not have children. For those who do and are contemplating how to leave an estate to them, I would suggest specifically dividing possessions or properties among the children. Do not put the children in charge of equally dividing the property or equally owning property together after your death. At least in my experience, there is one sibling or son of a sibling that wants it all.

Am I correct in understanding that building bigger barns is fine if you recognize that you're doing it to hold God's produce as a steward vs. holding it for your own selfish pleasure?


Paidion,

Do you think the fellowship of Acts 2:42 is an interchangeable term with church?

Is the fellowship of Acts 2:42 the same usage of fellowship as in 1 John 1?

I also welcome the comments of others but addressed that to Paidion since we had been discussing that earlier.

sincerely,

livingink