John MacArthur Chosen/Election series

[Guest]

I just thought I would post that John MacArthur is doing a series on Election (from his reformed view).

You can listen to the series here: http://www2.oneplace.com/Ministries/Grace_to_You/

It's been awhile since he's talked about the subject so it's interesting to hear him make his case. Things like: If God looked ahead to see who would believe then God would be subject to man's will and man would be soveriegn, etc. That kind carnal thinking is from our fallen nature, etc.

I like John, I just disagree with him on several points like this one.

[Guest]

Rmans 8:10
 "Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

a) Is Paul telling us that he wants to finish the race for those who have been pre-elected but not yet saved?

b) Is Paul telling us that he wants to finish the race so that those who were already saved will not pull away from Christ's grace?

[Guest]

i would argue "b", because we dont' really "obtain" salvation in this lifetime because it is an ongoing process. we are "working out our salvation" and we are being "saved from our sins" which are both ongoing processes.

the only thing that throws me off a little is Paul's statement "that they ALSO may obtain..." the word "also" suggests he is comparing them (the elect) with those who have already made it. if he is referring to dead saints, it makes sense; if he is comparing them to himself, it is more problematic because Paul's salvation was not yet complete either.

TK

[Guest]

"Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

I think that it is problematic to draw from this scripture that God has elected in some past time current unbelievers for salvation (with the exclusion of others no doubt). Here is why:

--
When Paul told the jailer to believe in the Lord Jesus and he would be saved along with his household, Paul didn’t know if the jailer was predestined to be saved or not, and so he must have been thinking to himself, “I hope this guy is one of the predestined ones and that God is just about to bestow His irresistible grace upon him, because what I’ve just told him to do is absolutely impossible for him to do. I’ve actually deceived him, giving him a false hope if he’s not predestined to be saved. I also hope that all the members of his household are predestined to be saved and that God is about to bestow His irresistible grace on them as well, otherwise I’ve deceived the jailer about them also. Perhaps I should have just told him the truth about his total depravity and God’s irresistible grace.” How could any consistent and thoughtful Calvinist tell people that they will be saved if they believe in the Lord Jesus without having such thoughts go through his mind?
--

The paragraph in the blue comes from David Kirkwood

[Guest]

Is it possible that God has predestined some people according to his sovereign will and others are not? For example is the conversion of Paul.
Is it possible that God has predesitined the salvation of Paul and others are not?

[Guest]

Is it possible that everyone have been predestined or elected to be with Christ? But due to the freedom that God has given us not all will be with Christ because some will choose to depart from the saving grace of Christ.

[Guest]

John Macarthur uses this verse to support his idea of man's depravity.
Romans 9:18
" Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."
To use this verse to support the idea of John Calvin without considering the events in the whole bible is incorrect. We have to know if there are instances in the bible in which God hardened the heart of a person then we have to know the reasons if it is given or indicated. In Exodus 4:21
God told Moses that he wiil hardened the pharaoh's heart. But God has given the pharoah the chance to repent before God hardened the heart of the pharoah. It was not stated that God gave the pharaoh the chance to repent but rather it was indicated. Moses asked the pharaoh 5 times in 5 different occasions to release Israel but the pharaoh never did so God hardened the heart of the pharaoh. Even after the last plague the pharaoh has the chance to repent but he never did.

[Guest]

Is it possible that God has predestined some people according to his sovereign will and others are not? For example is the conversion of Paul.
Is it possible that God has predesitined the salvation of Paul and others are not?

I'll admit it would have been difficult (in Paul's situation) for him to reject Christ, but not impossible.


Gal 1:15-16
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
(KJV)

The word for "called"in verse 15 is kaleo. It means to bid or invite. It does not mean to coerce. God made it clearer to Paul than to many of us that He wanted him not only saved but working hard for the Kingdom's sake. But I don't think that Paul was irresistably forced into Christianity.

Why many have a greater opportunity to accept Christ than others is a mystery to me. But it's still an invitation and not irresistable. Obviously Paul was resisting prior to this meeting with Jesus because He tells Paul to stop "kicking against the pricks", so Paul was fighting agaisnt what God was dealing with him about before this.

[Guest]

I thought the last 2 days of John's series were good in that John came right out and tried to directly answer some questions pertaining to election.

He admitted he believes in double predestination and yet he preaches all the "you've got to make a choice" passages as they stand. I can attest that He does teach these passages faithfully which is why I never knew he was reformed for at least the first year I listened to him.

I give John a lot of credit for trying to teach his reformed interpretation faithfully without being outright devisive about it.

He admits that he holds his view in part because if he really thought all people could just choose God if they were convinced well enough that the pressure on himself would be too much, leading to (what we see as commonplace today) a watered down gospel.

I certainly agree that the gospel is watered down to be "seeker sensitive" and some of this comes from the attitude that these people over time will see the true gospel if we just work on them hard enough.

I disagree, however, that a non reformed view of soteriology always leads to this conclusion. I believe that once you have proclaimed the gospel and have answered any questions people may have about it that it's out of you hands at that point. You don't have to assume the responsibility of chasing people down and talking them into salvation. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. We don't need to try and add to the power of God (the Gospel). We just need to proclaim it. Jesus is Lord.

[Guest]

sean said:

You don't have to assume the responsibility of chasing people down and talking them into salvation.

I agree.. but the problem in many of today's churches is not chasing them down and talking them into salvation, but rather preaching a soft gospel to them down to make sure they keep attending church (numbers numbers numbers). there must be some truth in this, i.e. i am sure there have been studies done that show a softer gospel approach = more people in the pews, or else there wouldnt be so many seeker sensitive quickly growing churches out there.

that's one thing i really like about John Mac-- he doesnt water down the gospel, whether it's to his own congregation or whether he's on Larry King Live discussing an issue of the day.

he wrote a book several years back called "ashamed of the gospel- when the church becomes like the world" which was quite excellent.

TK