Aaron,
Would you please share your version of the gospel?
Then maybe you can explain how anyone on this thread is preaching (or even suggesting that we accept) a different one than Paul preached.
Unity and the Early Church
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_Christopher
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Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
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_AARONDISNEY
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:39 pm
- Location: southernINDIANA
Christopher,
I don't want to take you up on that. There are things (obviously) that I disagree with concerning the views of many on here. Some of those things I feel to be very important issues.
But you are not understanding what I am saying obviously. I am speaking about the functions of a church or group. I don't believe one with a false doctrine should be allowed to teach their false doctrine in the church. That's what our declaration of faith does in my church. It is where we stand on the vital issues.
I don't want to hear any oneness teachers stand and speak in my church, followed the next week by a trinitarian...I just want the truth to be taught. It could be horribly confusing and damaging to a new Christian.
I don't want a Calvinist to stand and explain his false view of salvation and then him be followed by a nonCalvinist...for the same reason.
This is not rude or unloving (as you claim) it is taking care of the new Christian and protecting them from confusion...it is also following the instruction of the Word of God as I posted earlier...
Now why do you believe we should disregard the instruction to not allow false teaching to spread through our gatherings
II Jn 1:9-10
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(KJV)
I don't want to take you up on that. There are things (obviously) that I disagree with concerning the views of many on here. Some of those things I feel to be very important issues.
But you are not understanding what I am saying obviously. I am speaking about the functions of a church or group. I don't believe one with a false doctrine should be allowed to teach their false doctrine in the church. That's what our declaration of faith does in my church. It is where we stand on the vital issues.
I don't want to hear any oneness teachers stand and speak in my church, followed the next week by a trinitarian...I just want the truth to be taught. It could be horribly confusing and damaging to a new Christian.
I don't want a Calvinist to stand and explain his false view of salvation and then him be followed by a nonCalvinist...for the same reason.
This is not rude or unloving (as you claim) it is taking care of the new Christian and protecting them from confusion...it is also following the instruction of the Word of God as I posted earlier...
Now why do you believe we should disregard the instruction to not allow false teaching to spread through our gatherings
II Jn 1:9-10
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(KJV)
Last edited by _jazik on Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_anothersteve
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:30 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Hi Aaron,
When Paul says not to preach another gospel. I think one queston to ask is "What constitutes the gospel"? Paul states this in 1 Cor 15
"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance :that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter and then to the Twelve."
I don't know what the statement of faith says at your church, but It's hard to find one that dosen't contain peripheral issues to one degree or another. Usually these issues are not as clearly understood as the statement Paul made in 1 Cor 15. Perhaps your church has a statement that only deals with the core of the gospel like Paul did and maybe that's the misunderstanding here.
Also, just trying to clarify:
I don't think Paidon was trying to say:
"love, peace and togetherness no matter what the concept of truth is"
He actually said:
" unity in Christ, unity in our devotion, worship, and submission to Christ."
I hesitate to speak for him but I think he would actually want eveyone to pursue truth to the utmost....but with the understanding that we're all learning and need to be patient and gracious with each other.
Fellow learner/disciple
Steve
When Paul says not to preach another gospel. I think one queston to ask is "What constitutes the gospel"? Paul states this in 1 Cor 15
"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance :that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter and then to the Twelve."
I don't know what the statement of faith says at your church, but It's hard to find one that dosen't contain peripheral issues to one degree or another. Usually these issues are not as clearly understood as the statement Paul made in 1 Cor 15. Perhaps your church has a statement that only deals with the core of the gospel like Paul did and maybe that's the misunderstanding here.
Also, just trying to clarify:
I don't think Paidon was trying to say:
"love, peace and togetherness no matter what the concept of truth is"
He actually said:
" unity in Christ, unity in our devotion, worship, and submission to Christ."
I hesitate to speak for him but I think he would actually want eveyone to pursue truth to the utmost....but with the understanding that we're all learning and need to be patient and gracious with each other.
Fellow learner/disciple
Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_AARONDISNEY
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:39 pm
- Location: southernINDIANA
I totally agree, anothersteve. We're all still learning the wonderful Words of the Lord. But I think that my idea of the important issues and others are not the same.
Calvinism (for instance) is false and I don't want it taught in my church. I am not talking about a Calvinist coming into my church. I have no problem with that and I would welcome them and they would be viewed by me as a bro or sister. But when it comes to them speaking (teaching or preaching) in my church - I want no part of that. I don't know if people on here are thinking I am ready to throw someone out the window if they don't agree with everything we believe. I am only saying that they should not be allowed to teach in a church if their teaching is contradictory to the agreed upon beliefs of a particular group.
Calvinism (for instance) is false and I don't want it taught in my church. I am not talking about a Calvinist coming into my church. I have no problem with that and I would welcome them and they would be viewed by me as a bro or sister. But when it comes to them speaking (teaching or preaching) in my church - I want no part of that. I don't know if people on here are thinking I am ready to throw someone out the window if they don't agree with everything we believe. I am only saying that they should not be allowed to teach in a church if their teaching is contradictory to the agreed upon beliefs of a particular group.
Last edited by _jazik on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_anothersteve
- Posts: 46
- Joined: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:30 pm
- Location: Toronto, Canada
Aaron, as far as having people with different views speak at a church, I guess I have a different approach. I welcome it, as long as they wouldn't insist we all agree.
In the long run I think this approach would lead young Christians to not be dogmatic and to search the bible for themselves and then share the what they've learned in love.
I may be naive but I don't think it would ultimately lead to confussion but hopefully some good hard questions instead. Ironically I've met many Christians who have solidfied their postition on issues like the Trinity not from being taught in Church. Instead they were challenged by someone like a JW and thus had to crack open their bibles and know for themselves.
Your brother
Steve
In the long run I think this approach would lead young Christians to not be dogmatic and to search the bible for themselves and then share the what they've learned in love.
I may be naive but I don't think it would ultimately lead to confussion but hopefully some good hard questions instead. Ironically I've met many Christians who have solidfied their postition on issues like the Trinity not from being taught in Church. Instead they were challenged by someone like a JW and thus had to crack open their bibles and know for themselves.
Your brother
Steve
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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_AARONDISNEY
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:39 pm
- Location: southernINDIANA
Why do you need to have opposition to believe what you believe. I firmly believe the trinity because it is incredibly clear from the Word of God...Ironically I've met many Christians who have solidfied their postition on issues like the Trinity not from being taught in Church. Instead they were challenged by someone like a JW and thus had to crack open their bibles and know for themselves.
John 14:16
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(KJV)
If the people you are talking about didn't have their position solidified prior to a little opposition they weren't looking very carefully anyhow. Why question things you just know from the Word.
I guess I will just have to disagree with 90% of the folks around here but I'm getting used to it
God bless you all....night night!! (I'm going to bed)
Last edited by _jazik on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
And how do you make the leap from "preaching a different gospel" (Contextually, it is obvious that Paul was referring to the "gospel" of getting right with God by trying to keep the Mosaic law) toThose verses that I quoted were warning against false teaching. I don't know how you got anything other than that from them
Gal 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
disagreeing about "essential" theological issues?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
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_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
Hi Aaron,
Ok, if you don't want to back up your definition of a "different gospel", then I'll ask you a different question.
You wrote:
2 Tim 4:7-8
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
NKJV
Ok, if you don't want to back up your definition of a "different gospel", then I'll ask you a different question.
You wrote:
Could you define "false doctrine" for us? Then can you link it to something that a professed Christian on this thread/forum is espousing? Are you willing to take that to the throne and declare...Now why do you believe we should disregard the instruction to not allow false teaching to spread through our gatherings
II Jn 1:9-10
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
(KJV)
2 Tim 4:7-8
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
NKJV
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
It is a great shame of the church that christianity is divided. In Jesus' prayer in John 17 He indicates His credibility is dependent on the unity of His church, literally prays "they may be perfected into a unit". The importance of this can not be overemphasized.
It has been suggested our basis of unity is mainly related to behavior. Indeed in 1 John 2:3 we are informed that we know we are in Christ (and, by implication, the church, His body) if we keep His commandments. His commandments are more than moral commands; the sermon on the mount goes far beyond morality. But there are also positive commands; at least two, baptism and communion, and some would add foot washing.
Another basis of unity is the content of what is believed. In 1 Corinthians 15:3 Paul lists "as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures".
Steve has said we need to understand what is and what is not essential doctrine. This is the crux of the problem. Make no mistake, large denominations, and individuals, can not agree on the most basic of doctrines. The discussion of the meaning of the atonement illustrates this. That "Christ died for our sins" has a definite meaning, and not an unimportant meaning as Paul's statement indicates. How are people to be
in fellowship in the true sense when they have radically differing ideas on what Christ accomplished on the cross?
In Hebrews 6:1-2 repentance and baptism are listed as foundational teachings. True repentance has two aspects: change of mind and change of life. Yet one major segment of the church has totally severed, in their teachings, sanctification from justification. A person may live a life of sin but remain justified. How could a backslider be properly counseled by a pair of christians with opposing beliefs on sanctification?
And how are we to work together with different ideas about baptism? One wants his infant child baptized, another insists on believer's baptism, promptly done, and another thinks baptism not important at all. I know a couple who attended a large evangelical church for 20 years and had never been baptized, never realized it was important.
I think Jesus, in His prayer that we be perfected into a unit, had more in mind than we be kind to one another and not shun each other. How do we, in practical terms, become "a unit" on essentials, and what are truly the essentials?
It has been suggested our basis of unity is mainly related to behavior. Indeed in 1 John 2:3 we are informed that we know we are in Christ (and, by implication, the church, His body) if we keep His commandments. His commandments are more than moral commands; the sermon on the mount goes far beyond morality. But there are also positive commands; at least two, baptism and communion, and some would add foot washing.
Another basis of unity is the content of what is believed. In 1 Corinthians 15:3 Paul lists "as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures".
Steve has said we need to understand what is and what is not essential doctrine. This is the crux of the problem. Make no mistake, large denominations, and individuals, can not agree on the most basic of doctrines. The discussion of the meaning of the atonement illustrates this. That "Christ died for our sins" has a definite meaning, and not an unimportant meaning as Paul's statement indicates. How are people to be
in fellowship in the true sense when they have radically differing ideas on what Christ accomplished on the cross?
In Hebrews 6:1-2 repentance and baptism are listed as foundational teachings. True repentance has two aspects: change of mind and change of life. Yet one major segment of the church has totally severed, in their teachings, sanctification from justification. A person may live a life of sin but remain justified. How could a backslider be properly counseled by a pair of christians with opposing beliefs on sanctification?
And how are we to work together with different ideas about baptism? One wants his infant child baptized, another insists on believer's baptism, promptly done, and another thinks baptism not important at all. I know a couple who attended a large evangelical church for 20 years and had never been baptized, never realized it was important.
I think Jesus, in His prayer that we be perfected into a unit, had more in mind than we be kind to one another and not shun each other. How do we, in practical terms, become "a unit" on essentials, and what are truly the essentials?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Total love, or total truth—which is God's priority for His church? (two multiple choice questions):
1. "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples...
a) ...if you have love for one another,"
or
b) ...if you keep the church doctrinally pure according to your best understanding."
2. "If I...understand all mysteries and all knowledge...but have not love, I...
a) ...at least have what matters most,"
or
b) ...am nothing."
1. "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples...
a) ...if you have love for one another,"
or
b) ...if you keep the church doctrinally pure according to your best understanding."
2. "If I...understand all mysteries and all knowledge...but have not love, I...
a) ...at least have what matters most,"
or
b) ...am nothing."
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve