The Pledge during Worship

Post by **_Micah** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:06 am

livingink wrote:Yes, what would you plan to say if you were going to teach this from a scriptural standpoint? As I said, the Spirit often leads me to be quiet. But, at times, I was also lead to be very vocal and to bring up topics that were unpopular or misunderstood. And, eventually I GOT THROWN OUT ON MY EAR! ouch! So, look at your previous posts and those of others and suggest scriptures that would help Matt make his points.

respectfully,

livingink

This is why I suggested the caesar verse (Matthew 22:21) to convey a message of putting your priorities straight. However, if you want me to try and come up with a message that says pledging your loyalty to a nation is wrong, especially a nation whose foundation is built on christian principles, than you won't get that from me because I don't see where the bible calls that wrong.

In fact the bible calls us to obey our leaders:

Hebrew 13:7 -
17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Romans 13 calls us to subject ourselves to government authorities which are ordained by God. How fortunate we are to be subjected to an authority that has been built on christian principles. I find it odd that people here have a hard time pledging their loyalty to this nations ideals because of what this nation currently has become today. To me this is like saying I am not going to pledge allegiance to Christ because of christians like Benny Hinn. Should we be looking at the people who abused the great gift of liberty that has been bestowed upon us by our founding documents or should we be looking at the founding documents themselves and say this is what I believe in and pledge my loyalty to uphold?

I agree that our nation has turned rotten due to the sinful nature of mankind, but does that negate the good intentions of the original founding fathers? Does our abuse of scripture negate all that Christ has done for us?

Like I said if someone can show me where in the Preamble or Declaration of Independence that is diametrically opposed to the beliefs of Christianity than I can stand with you in denouncing my loyalty to those statements. I do believe that Christ comes first above any man-made law, but I also believe that God has ordained the governments on this earth and we are to respect them. I just believe we happen to be in the most fortunate of countries that is built upon Christian principles.

Does anyone here really believe that when you pledge allegiance to the flag that your really pledging allegiance to greed, sexual liberty, violence, etc. or do you think your pledging allegiance to the true ideas that our country is founded on?

If anyone has scripture verses that says I can't pledge my loyalty to a nation that agrees with God's law, than please show me. Now I can see where people may not want to do that in a church service, but for me personally I don't share that conviction when the ideals of your country don't conflict with your christian belief.

Post by **_livingink** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:50 am

Good. Now we've begun to find some scripture that would build a base for pledges in the assembly if one were going to attempt to argue that side of the issue. What else could we add and which scriptures would argue for the other side? A question about synagogues: Would an issue like this have been studied in the synagogue assuming the synagogue was also used as the school in many localities? Re: Steve's point about divisions--Since Matt's congregation is part of a larger denomination, have they already begun to divide from the body in a manner warned against by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3?

livingink

Post by **_TK** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:02 am

one reason NOT to follow through with the teaching would be out of respect for our elders( i cant think of the verse reference), especially in such a sensitive "collateral" matter.

TK

Post by **_Micah** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:30 am

livingink wrote:Good. Now we've begun to find some scripture that would build a base for pledges in the assembly if one were going to attempt to argue that side of the issue. What else could we add and which scriptures would argue for the other side? A question about synagogues: Would an issue like this have been studied in the synagogue assuming the synagogue was also used as the school in many localities? Re: Steve's point about divisions--Since Matt's congregation is part of a larger denomination, have they already begun to divide from the body in a manner warned against by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3?

I don't think this is an issue to divide over. I consider this as the same issue of eschatology. Should the body of Christ divide over whether you believe in pre-trib, post-trib, etc.? No they shouldn't and in the same way one shouldn't divide over whether one wants to say a pledge to the nation or not unless that pledge is antithetical to our Christian beliefs. I think we all can live in harmony by respecting each others convictions on this matter.

Post by **_JD** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:28 pm

Hi Matt,

I would follow Steve's example in teaching controversial subjects. Be charitable to the opposing views, and unashamed of your own.

There will be people in the assembly who will get upset and not think criticially. There will be critical thinkers who will still disagree with you. There will be folks who don't care either way. There will be folks who didn't previously care, but now think this through. Then, there will be the relieved - the ones who agree with you and thought they were the only ones.

Have fun.

Post by **_Steve** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:33 pm

Micah wrote:

"I find it odd that people here have a hard time pledging their loyalty to this nations ideals because of what this nation currently has become today. To me this is like saying I am not going to pledge allegiance to Christ because of christians like Benny Hinn."

The problem with this analogy is that Christianity is unchanging, and Benny Hinn is one of many deviations from what it actually is. Christianity remains the same reality, regardless how many multitudes of corrupters may deviate from what it is.

By contrast, America, by its own founders' definition, is whatever the majority of its people make it. The Constitution itself can be changed by the agreement of the supermajority, and it can be ignored with impunity, if the judiciary (given its power by the Constitution) chooses not to uphold its authority in specific cases of violation. No nation (other than the "holy nation" of the Kingdom of God) is eternal and unchanging.

The Roman republic was also founded on fairly enlightened principles, but eventially was overturned and given over to tyrants. Things on earth and in politics change. Things in America have also changed.

This is the problem with saying the pledge...to what exactly are we being asked to pledge allegiance? Not everyone has the same thing in mind. The wording states that I am pledging my allegiance to:

1) the flag (colored, cloth national symbol), and

2) the republic for which it stands (followed by idealistic modifiers of what the republic is thought to be, i.e., "one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all").

I suppose most Christians, when saying the pledge, are in their own minds professing their endorsement of these ideals, and suggesting that the American republic actually is characterized or described by these ideals. They are fine ideals, I think, but still the allegiance of the disciple is to God, not to countries. Scriptural commands to obey governmental authorities and laws are not the same thing as the advocacy of allegiance to the political institutions that govern or are governed by those laws. Ambassadors must submit to the local statues of their domicile nations, but their allegiance is elsewhere, to their own nation.

The ideals stated in the Declaration of Independence and in the Constitution may be very virtuous and very enlightened, but they are not the inspired Word of God, and bear no relationship to the worldwide fellowship of the saints—the Kingdom for which the disciple has renounced all other ultimate allegiances. Indeed, the documents may place their focus and emphasis on things that the Christian is called to give little priority to or concern for. That is, they may not be primary values of the Kingdom to which we belong, and can even distract from them.

I agree with Emmet that a nation is assessed, not by what it says, but what it does. I also believe that, in the sight of God, a nation is evaluated, not by the nobility of its founders or a glorious beginning, but by its current condition. Israel had the most noble of founders and the most glorious of beginnings, but because they departed from the ideals of the "founding documents" in practice, they came under God's curse, and were destroyed. As with individuals, so with nations, a good beginning will not be remembered by God, if it is not persevered in (Ezek.18:24/ Jer.18:9-10).

It is interesting to note that there is nothing distinctly Christian in either the Declaration of Independence, nor the Constitution. There is no mention of Jesus Christ, but only of a "Creator," a term amenable to any form of theism, including Judaism and Islam. By contrast, the founding documents of almost every free European nation specifically mention that Jesus Christ is Lord. If nations are to be evaluated by the wording of their founding documents, then the nations of Europe are more distinctly "Christian" than America ever was. But none of us would be fooled by this language. We know that the influence of Christianity in the actual lives and values of citizens is much greater in America than in any modern European nation.

There are, and always will be, a remnant in America who maintain virtuous life and ideals in the sight of God, but the majority in America obviously have abandoned virtue, or at least have become apathetic about vice. America today is no longer the republic described in the words of the pledge. We may say, "I am pledging allegiance to a republic that maintains the ideals of the founding documents." However, no such republic exists in the present world, and we are then pledging allegiance to a fond memory (perhaps even one embellished by the historians and patriots), but not to anything that is a part of present reality. How much more "Christian" it would be to pledge allegiance only to the ultimate and unchanging reality of the eternal King, Jesus Christ!

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:22 am

Steve,

Amen and amen! When allegiance is pledged to this nation, is it pledged to the nation as is or some idealized idea of what it was intended to be? The constitution itself no longer means what it originally said, but what nine people say it means, and they reflect the views of the dominate culture. Thus the liberty extolled in the pledge means the freedom to slaughter millions of babies.

If we pledge allegiance to our country, we are actually pledging allegiance to the government. Pledging our fidelity or faithfulness. Can a Christian do so without reservation? And if we intend only to be loyal only insofar as there is no conflict with our duty to our Lord, have we made a false vow? It is a vow, isn't it?

Our neighbor is a pharmacist, and a Christian. If the law required him to dispense the morning after pill, and he refused, would he not be failing to keep a pledge of allegiance to his government?

I do not understand why people want to pledge allegiance again and again, nor do I see why they would want to do it in the assembly of the saints, especially when a Christian can't really pledge total fidelity to any nation. If people want to say it, there is plenty opportunity elsewhere.

Post by **_Sean** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:56 am

In my opinion, Politics should not be the focus of discussion in a church meeting. This topic shouldn't offend because you should, if you like, pledge you loyality to your country. That's between you and God. But what I haven't figured out is why this would be done in church. I personally disagree with taking the pledge because I'm suppose to be a "stanger and a pilgrim". I mean, what would happen if the US became hostile to Christians and we fled to Canada? Or what if the US government forbade raising your children with Christian influences from inside the home., so you decide it's time to relocate to another country. Wouldn't that be breaking our pledge? If so, then why make it?

Post by **_Micah** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:37 pm

Thanks for the replies all. I first want to state that I am in total agreement that our ultimate allegiance is to Christ. I don't think I have ever stated otherwise, if I was misunderstood I am sorry for the confusion. I guess my point is when I pledge allegiance to the country I am doing it because I want to maintain the founding ideas of our forefathers. Even though it is allowed to change with a supermajority, over the past 200+ years nothing to my knowledge has changed about it that would make a Christian not be able to agree with it.

Also, the Declaration of Independence and the Preabmle can never be changed and when they mention a "Creator" do you think they had anything in mind other than the protestant God? I don't think they did seeing how there were no muslims or jews at the time of writing. Also, isn't liberty a christian ideal of free will that I have seen you guys support over and over?

I agree that our nations founding documents are being abused by governmental powers and if any law that is made that contradicts Christianity we are to follow Christ and suffer the consequences of disobeying our government. We don't need to flee our country. Also, pledging your allegiance to your country doesn't mean a blind allegiance and I don't even think the founding fathers would agree with that. Hopefully, our suffering the consequences of disobedience brings about justice, but this leads to another question I have pondered for some time and Matt because this question seems to somewhat divert from your original premise please let me know if you want me to take it to another thread:

If you haven't read the Declaration of Independence please do so before responding.

Were the Christians in the American Revolution wrong for fighting back?

If you lived during that time period would you fight back or do what you are suggesting today and suffer the consequences of disobedience?

Do you think God condemned or supported that war?

Thanks again for your responses.

Post by **_Anonymous** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:47 pm

Micah,
I like your questions...I'm just not sure I understand this one:

If you lived during that time period would you fight back or do what you are suggesting today and suffer the consequences of disobedience?

Whose/what suggestion are you referring to when you asked "...or do what you are suggesting today...?"

Fighting back was disobedience and the war was the consequence. What other acts of disobedience and what other consequences are you imagining?