The Pledge during Worship

[Guest]

Hi Matt,

A couple years ago one of my Sunday School lessons had something to do with faith. It was one of those times that you get to 3 a.m. on Sunday morning and there was just nothing coming. So, I closed the books and went to bed prepared to look like a complete fool in front of the class. As I began to get into the lesson, I made the few points I could make and then I asked some question about experiences anybody had had with faith in their life. A WWII veteran began to tell the story of being in his foxhole on Luzon when a phosphorus bomb hit beside him burning his face and setting his jacket on fire. He talked about the smell as the phosphorus burnt his hands and eyes.

Paul talks about the man who stands and leads his family when he describes the bishop (KJV) for Timothy. The same man talked about being the scout for his squad. He related an incident when he ran through a clearing and waited for the next man to follow. The second man hesitated in the middle of the clearing and was killed by a sniper. So, my friend related that he has felt that God was watching out for him and has thanked God each day for the last 50+ years. He believed he could have been killed either time.

He also talked about his thankfulness for several years of marriage to his wife who was recently deceased at that time and his belief that God had blessed him. He also said something that I've heard other WWII vets say. When he was actually in battle, he was not thinking about pledges, or flags, or freedom. He was thinking about staying alive. I believe he would tell you that he always kept his relationship with God foremost while none of these other things came between he and God. He was about your age then. I don't know if he had ever studied or questioned what you're questioning--I suspect not. That doesn't mean you're wrong for doing so. It may mean that he never encountered a teacher willing to question and challenge. But that's part of a teacher's function.

You asked what to do. I would suggest that you seek one of your elders out and sit down to have a very frank discussion about this subject. You've probably been in this congregation long enough that you have an elder of WWII age who would be willing to sit down with you for a couple hours to hear your concerns and speak to you meekly. Some of those grayheads can very quietly and gently nudge a young man in directions that he doesn't even know exist. You have demonstrated your ability to compare what they tell you with scripture. Then you'll be able to decide how to procede if, in fact, you do procede.

On that Sunday morning, the Holy Spirit didn't give me words to say. He simply needed me to start the discussion and then be still. He will guide you, also.

Praying for you,

livingink

[Guest]

Not only would I not pledge allegiance to a flag or nation, I will not even pledge to give a certain amount of money to a church or Christian organization. For me, to pledge is to ensure that the thing pledged takes place. Pledging is tantamount to taking a vow. Consider Jephthah, who vowed to God that if he were successful in battle, he would offer in sacrifice the first person who met him at his door. His only offspring, his daughter, was the first person to meet him.

It is impossible to ensure that a pledge will be met. We cannot control events to ensure such.

When I have been presented with a pledge card by an organization to which I wished to give, I have stricken out the word "pledge" in "I pledge to give", and replaced it with the word "intend".

[Guest]

I don't have a problem because the pledge says the nation is "under God" and that makes a big difference to me because it's affirming that God's will is the final authority IMO.

[Guest]

Hello, everybody,

Some great points have been raised in this discussion .

I'd like to engage the issue by asking what the purpose of the faith assembly actually is. I would suggest that the purpose of brethren meeting together is not to celebrate their national or cultural bonds, but rather to celebrate God and relationship as part of his community of faith. Importing other matters can be distracting and even detrimental to this primary purpose.

What if a congregation should have amongst its visitors an Iraqi person (Christian or Muslim) whose family member was killed by American military action? Or a Vietnamese person whose aunt was raped by American soldiers? Or a person from a banana republic, who has lived under the shadow of American economic exploitation? Or a native American whose people has suffered under the American expansion? Or even a plain old WASP who has become disillusioned with the political or social shape of American culture? While we may acknowledge positive American legacies, we must also recognize that the American footprint has not always been positive in the lives of some people. And while we might hope that such people will come to a place of peace and forgiveness in their hearts, it seems unnecessary to place stumbling blocks in their way when there are more important matters to be considered.

When choosing to include national piety in our religious services, we need to ask what is gained, and what is risked, and whether the activity is really germane to our purpose.

Shalom,
Emmet

[_Steve]

I really appreciate and agree with Emmet's points. If a Christian brother or sister of another nationality were to be visiting the church, and was asked to engage in a pledge of allegiance to the American nation, they could not, of course, do so. This would then mean that a portion of the "order of worship" would not be relevant to such congregants, creating a division in the body of Christ. Why should the colony of heaven profess loyalty to an earthly state, to which many of our colony do not belong, and which many would have occasion to object to? Why are there flags in churches anyway? I could never figure out what Athens (or Rome) has to do with Jerusalem. Modern western Christians (unlike the primitive church) seem to be very confused about loyalties.

[Guest]

I also agree. Flags in churches have bothered me for some time. Sends a mixed and diluted message IMO.

[Guest]

Hi Emmet,

Once again good points. The only thing I can consider is that even Christianity can also be scrutinized in the same way. People have done terrible things in the name of Christianity just like people have done terrible things in the name of being an American. So, should we not celebrate Christ as well?

Now you can say well one would expect Christian ideals when going to church, but to me it is where the church service is being held and what the nation truly stands for. I believe liberty is a God given right to everyone and I believe that is what our country stands for. I do agree that it has been miscronstrued by many people over the ages, just like the Bible has, but I think the wording is pretty clear in both the Preamble and the Declaration of Independence. I believe that is what people are recognizing when they pledge their allegience and we shouldn't stop recognizing that because it might offend the few who were abused by the evil of the few.

If the ideals of this country were diametrically opposed to the ideals of Christianity than I could see your point, but I just don't see it or it has yet to be shown to me.

Take care.

[Guest]

A baby Christian bit of input here

Interesting topic...I must agree that my allegiance is to God, first and foremost. I have come to determine in my Christian walk and reading these replies that I would certainly have a problem pledging allegience to a nation "supposedly" founded upon a "nation under God" who would make such a stink about the public profession of faith, yet turn around and make available Bibles and religious material to people in jail and prison free for the asking.

Maybe...and I'm just spitballin' here...if the religioius materials were made more readily available to the public, the jails and prisons of our nation would be less crowded.

Just a thought. I may be told to sit down, shut up, and learn at any point forthwith

[Guest]

Hi, Micah,

Thank you, as ever, for your response!

People have done terrible things in the name of Christianity just like people have done terrible things in the name of being an American. So, should we not celebrate Christ as well?

The difference, it seems, is that celebrating Christ is essential to the Christian faith community, while celebrating America is not.

Now you can say well one would expect Christian ideals when going to church, but to me it is where the church service is being held and what the nation truly stands for. I believe liberty is a God given right to everyone and I believe that is what our country stands for. I do agree that it has been miscronstrued by many people over the ages, just like the Bible has, but I think the wording is pretty clear in both the Preamble and the Declaration of Independence.

From a Jewish perspective: you tell what a nation stands for by what it does, not by what it says. America stands for materialism and pleasure-seeking in the face of basic human need, sexual permissiveness, the destruction of human life in the fetal stage, and the protection of satanic worship and literature. Of course, some would call these things liberty.

I believe that is what people are recognizing when they pledge their allegience and we shouldn't stop recognizing that because it might offend the few who were abused by the evil of the few.

It is relevant to ask what the benefit is to the many, and whether that benefit is sufficient to discount the attendant harm. There are plenty of secular opportunities to pledge allegiance to America, and there is no Christian imperative (that I am aware of) to pledge allegiance to a secular power. On the other hand, reaching out to people - especially the marginalized and abused - with the light of Christ is a Christian imperative. It seems questionable to jeopardize the imperative value for an extraneous one.

Thanks again for your response.

Shalom,
Emmet

[Guest]

Maybe...and I'm just spitballin' here...if the religioius materials were made more readily available to the public, the jails and prisons of our nation would be less crowded.

Agreed. Providing the Bible to someone may lead them to Christ and a complete life change.

However, providing the message of the gospel to anyone and everyone is the mission of the church, not the government. Even if the government wants to do that job (and beware if they do), we, as followers of Christ, should never abdicate that responsibility.

IMHO, the church is at its best when it is detached from the government.