Elect in the Son- By Robert Shank

Post by **_Anonymous** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:21 pm

Ever read this book anyone? The Church I go to has a library, and I checked this out. I am currently reading it, and my mentor referred it to me, but was wondering if any has came across it. I live in Louisville Ky, where Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (a predominately Reformed seminary)is located. About 35 years ago, Robert Shank wrote on what he considered to be the true biblical election. Amazingly, the vice president of Southern Seminary at that time commended and said that time should tell to see if it stands or falls. As far as I know, there has been no refutations or anyone touching on it that disagrees.

SoaringEagle

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:32 pm

Shank's work is excellent. I recommend his "Life in the Son" as even better. It is an absolute classic. I believe it is still available new from Amazon.

Post by **_Steve** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:46 pm

I agree with Homer. Both books are great, but I was more impressed with "Life in the Son." I doubt that it will ever be adequately refuted by Calvinists. It is more thorough than anything on this forum, and the Calvinists won't even refute us here.

Post by **_Ely** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:36 pm

Okay, I've just ordered both books. They better be good or I'm sending the bill to you guys

Post by **_postpre** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:51 pm

I can attest that "Life in the Son" is an excellent book.

Ely, I know that you frequent PFRS. In many ways I don't believe that Shank's work is any more impressive than what you'd read from a Tim Warner or Roger Samsel on the selfsame topic.

To add to this, there are some aspects to Shank's work that borders on Wesleyanism (i.e. that certain sins can separate a believer from God)

If I remember correctly, many Wesleyanism scholars postulate that King David lost his salvation after his Old Testament sin and cover up (and that he regained it via Psalm 51). They also suggest that Peter's denial of Christ forfeited his salvation for a time, too.

Weseyanism scholars are known stick their feet in 1 John almost suggest that living a holy life is what preserves our salvation.

Brian

Post by **_TK** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:46 pm

Brian wrote:

If I remember correctly, many Wesleyanism scholars postulate that King David lost his salvation after his Old Testament sin and cover up (and that he regained it via Psalm 51). They also suggest that Peter's denial of Christ forfeited his salvation for a time, too.

being a fairly recent convert from "once saved always saved" to the alternative view, i am not sure that the weslyans are not correct. if one denies Christ, then how are they still "saved?" i believe that I have heard Steve G state in his lectures on church history that a Christian who recanted his faith under torture is likely going to hell. (steve, by all means correct me if this is not your position. ).

one of the frustrating things for me in regard to the view that a person can lose his salvation is what must one do in order to lose it? backslide and live in sin? deny christ? tell little white lies frequently? steal pens from work? how far do you have to go? (not that i intend on crossing any lines personally, but it would still be nice to know).

TK

Post by **_postpre** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:41 pm

TK,

I may have more to say tomorrow when I have time. But, I believe that Wesleyanism, in this regard, is a misunderstanding of the text. The only way a believer can become an unbeliever is through a wilfull forsaking of the faith. Peter, for example, only buckled in a time of personal weakness. He didn't fall away and become an enemy of God. The same is true of King David (albeit for a longer period of time). Remember, God's mercy is HUGE. We are saved by his GRACE. Remaining in Christ is not about abstaining from certain sins, or doing certain deeds. It's about FAITH. Where is the freedom when one is concerned about losing their salvation over the pettiest little things?

Read the following article by Tim Warner. It should help:

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin05.html

Brian

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:13 am

In the article, Tim Warner said:

"In this passage Paul explained the only way a believer can become an apostate. It is UNBELIEF, the complete absence of faith. Habitual sin is not the direct cause of falling away, but it can be a catalyst for hardening the heart, leading to unbelief. Unbelief is the only thing that actually separates the former believer from God. And unbelief can only come when the heart of the believer is allowed to become completely hardened."

This does not seem consistent with Hebrews 10:26; "For if we go on willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,..."

Warner appears to completely sever sanctification from justification which true Calvinists do not do. Calinism teaches that the elect will perservere, and if a person lives a life of sin, they were never saved.

If I understand TK, the question is how sanctified must one be to be justified, which is not addressed by Warner at all. I do not believe "Without holiness no one will see God" means a completely imputed righteousness absent any fruitfulness in one's life.

Post by **_TK** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:35 am

well stated, Homer.

While i believe, like Brian said, that UNBELIEF obviously spells trouble, i also think it is possible to believe and not be saved.

Jesus talked about the narrow gate AND the narrow path. getting through the narrow gate is required but so is keeping to the narrow path.

let me give an embarrassing example from my own past. I have believed in God for as long as I can remember, and I trusted Christ as my savior at a young age. my parents, as well as almost my entire extended family, were all Godly influences. i was always pretty much a goody two shoes-- good grades, stayed out of trouble etc. But as I got into my later high school years and college, i drifted away somewhat-- i didnt really attend church, etc but i never stopped believing. in college, i would got out to the bars with my friends doing things i shouldnt. but i often remember coming home and reading my Bible before going to bed.

however, because i continued in this college-like behavior, one could say that i was not repentant. looking back on those days, i shudder to think at the possibility that i was not "saved" during that period of my life, because i was not walking the narrow path. i would not have denied Christ, and i still believed in my heart of hearts, but my actions did not support what i said i believed.

what do you guys think of this scenario, which unfortunately i believe is a very common one especially among young christians when they leave home?

TK

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:55 am

This does not seem consistent with Hebrews 10:26; "For if we go on willfully sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,..."

IMHO virtually any sin is willful because it comes from our will therefore this must mean a pattern of sinful living which reflects our heart not really believing Jesus.