Are mental images of Jesus the same as graven images?

_STEVE7150
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Are mental images of Jesus the same as graven images?

Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:39 pm

J.I. Packer says "Just as it forbids us to manufacture molten images of God, so it forbids us to dream up mental images of Him. Imagining God in our heads can be just as real a breach of the 2nd commandment as imagining Him by the work of our hands."
The text says "You shall not make for yourself an idol." So is this idolatry?

Using our imagination has a bad rep because of those statues in the RCC and all those mental images and because in the secular world the imagination is often used for sinful purposes so it seems with all these temptations why even think about it.
And that has been the teaching in Protestantism , that the written word of God is all that we need but are'nt we physical creatures who also need to experience Christ. Does'nt the experience of Christ make him more real to us because if you honestly look at the behavior of bible believing Christians , is it dramactically different then the world. Why is that? Could it be because most have made an intellectual ascent but not a heart felt ascent simply because you can't force it. You can't make someone have a heartfelt ascent so maybe imagining Christ entering our past,present and future is a beneficial thing to some people. But is it biblical?

The bible refers to God as a gentle shepherd (Ps 23.1, Isa 40.11) a mighty rock or fortress (2 Sam 22.47, Ps 18.2,31 19.14,31.2-3,59.9,16-17). as a caring father (Isa 9.6,66.8) as a nuturing mother (Isa 49.15,65.23,Deut 32.11-12, Matt 23.37)
What could the purposes of these metaphors be if not appealing to our imagination? They are giving us an opportunity to experience God IMO.
And of course there are many metaphorical descriptions of Christ ,"the glory of God is revealed in the face of the man Jesus Christ" 2 Cor 4.4-6
How are we to "fix our eyes on Jesus ,the author and perfecter of our faith" Heb 12.2 unless we are allowed to imagine?
What do you think?
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Wed Sep 06, 2006 7:09 am

Hey steve- great question--

for me it is almost impossible to think about Jesus w/o conjuring up a mental picture in my mind of what i think he looks like. i cant help it or stop it-- it is just there. i dont imagine him looking like any certain person or depiction of him in paintings or movies; rather i get an impression of him from what i read about him in the scriptures.

the same thing happens when i talk to people on the phone that i dont know. dont you sort of get an image in your mind of what the person you are talking to looks like? of course 99% of the time your image is wrong. but i just think our minds work that way.

Jesus was a person in the flesh so we know that he looked like something. i think it is only natural to wonder what he looked like. we are not "worshiping" our mental image of Him; rather we worship Him. Since God the Father is Spirit, it is easier not to form mental images. some people may have the grandfatherly image of an old man with a long white beard but i personally have never thought of the Father this way.

I dont disagree with what Packer says in reference to the Father because any image we can come up with will fall far short of the reality of who God actually is. in other words, any image we conjure cannot do God justice. so then, if what we think about when we think about God is the image we have conjured, and not God as He in fact is, then this would be idolatry. I think AW Tozer talks about this in "The Knowledge of the Holy."

TK
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Post by _Micah » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:18 pm

If we weren't to imagine Jesus Christ in our mind than why are we given a description of him in Isaiah 53? The only issue that I believe involves our minds is when it is used to purposely sin.

For example, is it wrong to picture in your mind any woman on this earth or is just wrong to think of them in a lustful way? I see absolutely nothing wrong with imagining Jesus in our mind. I don't even see how you can idolize something that way unless you created that image with your hands and worshipped the image. I know when I picture Jesus in my mind the first thing that comes is the Catholic picture of Jesus. Do I worship the picture or the man? Obviously the man. If he turns out looking differently only I will be shocked because of my preconceptions, but I don't see Jesus reprimanding me for it just like I wouldn't reprimand someone for picturing me differently.
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Post by _schoel » Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:32 pm

Check out the discussion on this thread.
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=818
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:46 am

I did'nt realize there was a similar thread. Anyway i encountered this topic from reading the book "Seeing is Believing" by Greg Boyd in which Boyd reworked certain painful childhood memories by recreating the scenerios in his imagination except that he brought Jesus with him which led to a different outcome as Jesus interceeded for Boyd and validated his worth as a child of God. I thought it was quite interesting as it took many revisits to help Boyd but some people were helped right away.
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Post by _Anonymous » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:05 am

STEVE7150 wrote:I did'nt realize there was a similar thread. Anyway i encountered this topic from reading the book "Seeing is Believing" by Greg Boyd in which Boyd reworked certain painful childhood memories by recreating the scenerios in his imagination except that he brought Jesus with him which led to a different outcome as Jesus interceeded for Boyd and validated his worth as a child of God. I thought it was quite interesting as it took many revisits to help Boyd but some people were helped right away.
Steve, this seems like a whole different question. Originally I thought you were just talking about the natural way we create pictures in our minds, like how we imagine posters here who haven't put their own photographs in their avatars yet. :D But what you are descirbing with the experiences of Greg Boyd is a little troubling. Was it like hypnosis? Or guided imagery? From what you've described, it seems a little 'out there.' But some people were helped, huh?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:35 am

Steve, this seems like a whole different question. Originally I thought you were just talking about the natural way we create pictures in our minds, like how we imagine posters here who haven't put their own photographs in their avatars yet. But what you are descirbing with the experiences of Greg Boyd is a little troubling. Was it like hypnosis? Or guided imagery? From what you've described, it seems a little 'out there.' But some people were helped, huh?
Hi Michelle, Yeah, it does seem like guided imagery except Boyd's premise is that he believes the imagery is guided by the Holy Spirit and that many Christians may recoil at the thought because it sounds like manipulation. Boyd did this apparently as part of some type of meditation process. I have'nt finished the book yet but i try to be open minded about things like this.
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:40 pm

michelle wrote:
Originally I thought you were just talking about the natural way we create pictures in our minds, like how we imagine posters here who haven't put their own photographs in their avatars yet :)
ouch... i'm working on it! i'm working on it!

TK
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Post by _TK » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:44 am

steve wrote:
I did'nt realize there was a similar thread. Anyway i encountered this topic from reading the book "Seeing is Believing" by Greg Boyd in which Boyd reworked certain painful childhood memories by recreating the scenerios in his imagination except that he brought Jesus with him which led to a different outcome as Jesus interceeded for Boyd and validated his worth as a child of God. I thought it was quite interesting as it took many revisits to help Boyd but some people were helped right away.
Steve G addresses this very thing in his "Biblical Counsel for a Change" series which i just happen to be listening to. check out that last 20 minutes or so of session 2. He feels, and I agree, that what Greg Boyd is describing is on very shaky grounds biblically and possibly even dangerous. he mentioned Hal Lindsey's sister, who was involved in this sort of thing before she was a Christian,. i.e. using Jesus in "guided imagery" until she came to the realization that it wasnt Jesus guiding her but a demon impersonating Jesus.

TK
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Post by _Anonymous » Fri Sep 08, 2006 8:04 am

To get back to your original question, does Greg Boyd say that he worshipped the Christ in his imagery? That might be a case of a graven image, I think, especially if it wasn't really Jesus.

I agree with TK that it, guided imagery, is not a great idea. My childhood, as childhoods go, was a pretty ideal one, so I have no idea what the pain would be like for someone who started life in a rough way. I've had my share of trauma since then, however, and what I've experienced in my life as 'emotionally healing' is the supernatural ability to be forgiving, which I believe comes through the Holy Spirit. I'm not sure I would even want to go back and change the circumstances, even in my imagination. But I've never even talked to a counsellor, so I'm not sure I know very much about 'emotional healing.'
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