Romans 3:10-12 - Total Depravity

[Guest]

This is poetic exaggeration, a common figure of speech not to be read with a slavish literalism. Other Scriptures tell us there are righteous men who do good (contrary to a literal reading of Rom. 3:10). Job is a perfect example: "This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil" (Job 1:1). The Bible also tells us of men who sought after God and found Him. In 2 Chronicles 11:16, we read: "Those from every tribe of Israel who set their hearts on seeking the Lord, the God of Israel, followed the Levites to Jerusalem to offer sacrifices to the Lord, the God of their fathers."

Here the Calvinist would say that these men were regenerate I think (like I mentioned earlier), and that the quote from Paul/David are about the unregenerate, natural man.

Derek

[Guest]

Michelle & Derek,

I think the problem we have because Paul's main point is overlooked. The view I hold (and many theologians have long held) is that Romans is primarily about Jews and Gentiles, that is, about peoples as a group rather than individuals. This does not mean, of course, that there is no application to individuals.

Reading Romans Chapters 1-3 I believe you will see that both Jews and gentiles are sinners in need of God's grace, all being justified through faith. At first it seems Paul says that proverbial "man in the jungle" can be saved by following his conscience but Paul indicates in the verses under discussion that all are sinners, "we all stumble in many ways" and need a savior.

Reading beyond Romans 3:10-12 we find Paul saying in v.23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Then in v.28-29 he says "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from deeds of the law. Or is He a God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes of the Gentiles also."

As I understand what SoaringEagle posted, vs. 10-18 is a poetic way of saying what Paul said in v.9, that is, "both Jews and gentiles are all under sin", i.e., condemned apart from God's grace through faith. "Poetic hyperbole" if you will. This is my view of it. It does not mean a person can not cooperate with God in accepting the gospel.

Hope this helps.

[Guest]

OK, so there are three responses to the Calvinist interpretation of the passage:

1) The context is about groups of people, not the condition of individuals. Among Jews and Gentiles, none is seeking God, none is doing good. We're all in the same boat. This is the point Paul is making and it has nothing to do with whether or not an individual can seek God or do anything good.

2) Paul is quoting from Psalms, where the genre is poetic, employing the poetic device of hyperbole. It's not to be taken literally; it's not a description of the unelect. (It's like when I get mad at the young people living with me and say, "No one puts their dishes in the dishwasher, no, not one!" I'm exaggerating, but only slightly.)

3) The use of the present participle in the Greek grammar indicates that Paul is refering to a continuous action, not precluding any momentary exception. (I guess I'll assume that the continuous action is the positive; continually seeking, instead of the negative; continually not seeking)

Right?

[Guest]

Michelle,

Exactly! Those young people have an inclination to "seek" their own interest, not yours. The one "who does good" would be the one who always puts the dishes in the dishwasher.

[Guest]

And may God bless her richly!

[Guest]

I'd like to say thanks to everyone for the responses. Especially, Michelle for your nice summary of the options. I'll think about these answers for a while, and probably come up with further questions later.

hey pete- nice pike, by the way. it reminds me of one of my favorite family photos- when i was really young we used to vacation in rice lake, wisconsin and we have a photo of a long table of northern pikes side by side like a bunch of logs-- fun times!

TK, thanks I don't fish much, but the pike pic comes from family vacation to upper pen. of michigan for a fishing trip. We had a nice time there.

Pete

[Guest]

Steve Gregg's thoughts on Romans 3:10-12:

In Psalm 14:2ff (quoted by Paul, in Romans 3:10-12), we are told what God saw when he looked down on the sons of men in the author's time. Using typical biblical hyperbole, David says, they had “all turned aside” and had “become corrupt.” These are clearly not declarations of a birth condition, but speak of a departure from an earlier condition (possibly their relatively-more-innocent childhoods?). Paul, in quoting this Psalm includes, “There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God.” What God saw was “none that does good, no, not one." Calvinists generally acknowledge (as is only reasonable) that this is not quite true of everyone, since the writer himself, for example, would be an exception to this general assessment. Calvinists, therefore, say that the psalmist is describing only "unregenerate man" (excluding the elect). However, this does not arise from exegeting the passage, or even from reading it very carefully. The statement applies, as the passage says, to "the sons of men"—a generic expression used in the scriptures for "human beings," including those who are believers (cf. Ps.8:4). Both Calvinists and Arminians can agree that some exceptions must be allowed to the general description of humanity given in the Psalm. God looked down and saw “none” (probably, allowing for the hyperbole, actually "very few") who were righteous, who understood, who sought God or did good. This kind of hyperbole is not without parallel in scripture (cf. John 3:32-33). The prophets often gave such appraisals of the spiritual state of their society or their generation, and David did the same. To say he was teaching a universal theological/anthropological dogma would be to press his intentions far beyond what we have reason to believe them to have been.