John 10:29, "My Sheep"

[Guest]

Setev wrote something somewher else concerning this fmaous Calvinistic "proof text":

Jesus' "sheep" were those given to Him by His Father (John 10:29). These people were previously the Father's sheep—that is, they were the believing remnant in Israel—and the Father gave them to be under Christ's pastoral leadership (John 17:6).

When Jesus arrived in Israel, most Jews were not of the believing remnant, and were, therefore, not among the sheep that the Father gave to Jesus. Those who were not of the believing remnant before Jesus came (not surprisingly) did not believe in Jesus, either. This is what Jesus is acknowledging when He said, "You do not believe [i.e., in Jesus] because you are not of my sheep [i.e., you are not among those who believe in my Father, and are thus not of the group He has given me.]"

I agree with this interpretation, but I have one question. Among those who believed in Jesus were Matthew Levi and Zachaeus, who were both tax collectors, the 'sinful woman' (harlot?) who anointed His feet (Luke 7:36-39). How could they have been part of the believing remnant when, prior to coming across Jesus, they were living in blatant sin?

[Guest]

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." - John 15:16

In this verse, Jesus is speaking to His disciples. Including Judas. Interesting, eh?

In this verse, Jesus speaks of ordaining these men to be His disciples, and to bear fruit. However, no connection is ever made in regards to Christ's "choice" and their eternal destiny.

Er ... I don't know if this answers your question ...

[Guest]

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." - John 15:16

In this verse, Jesus is speaking to His disciples. Including Judas. Interesting, eh?

Actually, JUdas had gone by then, see 14:21-30. But 6:70-71 and 17:12 make clear that Judas was indeed one of those chosen by Jesus and given to Him by the Father.

But my quesiton was about the remnant which the Father gave to the Son. If they were already part of the remnant prior to Jesus' arrival, why were some of them living in blatant sin before Jesus actually called them out?

[Guest]

But my quesiton was about the remnant which the Father gave to the Son. If they were already part of the remnant prior to Jesus' arrival, why were some of them living in blatant sin before Jesus actually called them out?

I wouldn't group those individuals within the believing remnant but rather as lost sheep called to repentence.

IMHO, the remnant would be composed of individuals like Zachariah and Elizabeth, Joseph and Mary, Anna and Simeon (Luke 2), most of the 12 disciples, etc. These were individuals who displayed an obedience and devotion to God before Jesus fully began his ministry.

[Guest]

I agree with Schoel. The sinners who came to Jesus were probably a second category of those who came to Christ—there were the faithful sheep and there were the lost sheep—Jesus came for them all. But He was not surprised when the rival shepherds (Ezek.34:2), "thieves" (John 10:8) or "dogs" (Phil.3:2) didn't follow Him, since they were not open to God.

The lost "sheep" were not hostile to God. They may have been discouraged and disgusted by their own sinful weakness and have given up all hope in the institutional religion, which was represented primarily by the likes of the Pharisees and the corrupt priesthood.

For example, the woman at the well was living in sin, but I believe she was hungering and thirsting for righteousness. She longed for the Messiah to come and explain all things (John 4:25). She wondered at which mountain she ought to worship in order to be accepted by God (John 4:20). When she glimpsed that Jesus was the Messiah, she excitedly ran and told everyone that they should meet Him and believe in Him (John 4:28-29). Even though she was in a sinful lifestyle, she desired God, which many of the Pharisees did not.

The same may have been true with the likes of Zacchaeus, Matthew, the sinful woman, etc. They were not of the "faithful" remnant, but they were of the "hopeful," but lost, category. They were, no doubt, the lost sheep.

This distinction may be instructive in our assessment of modern sinners (e.g., some homosexuals, prostitutes, etc.) in contrast to many religious folks who seem to despise them. There are religious "dogs" and there are "lost sheep" in every age. Jesus views the latter as lost, but also as sheep. When they ultimately hear His voice, they follow Him (John 10:27).

[Guest]

Forgive me if this belongs in another topic but it might be relevant to this discussion. In Steve's Church History lectures I get the sense that the true believers in the ekklesia in the wilderness with Moses could also be viewed in the same light as the remnant. Is this correct?

thanks,

livingink