Is a “sin nature” biblical?

[Guest]

I sure hope so. We are commanded to be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. It is an ongoing challenge.

[Guest]

I was wondering if we can try to define exactly what the "sin nature" is? Is it just a inner desire to do what is wrong or something else? Could the sin nature just be the fact we now know what is both good and evil? The the problem we have is that we can't handle the knowledge of evil whereas Jesus is able. Here is the verse for my reasoning:

Genesis 3:22 -

22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- Emphasis added.

[Guest]

Paidion,

You said:

Since Jesus was perfectly sinless, and since He is the pioneer of our salvation and of our faith, then the sinlessness of His disciples seems to be a possibility (Heb 2:10, 12:2 RSV)

Salvation is a process whose goal appears to be perfection. It seems that Paul taught that Christ's disciples will receive the finishing touches of righteousness at the coming of Christ:

Are you saying we can (some of us at least) reach a state where we no longer sin or are you saying that although we can't reach a state of sinlessness now, we will when Jesus returns?

James said "we all stumble in many ways". John said in 1 John 1:9; "If we confess (present subjunctive, continuous or repeated confession) our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins....". Doesn't this imply we will need to keep on confessing because we never cease stumbling (although less frequently)?

James said, James 2:13; "For judgement will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgement." The merciless person will not receive any. The merciful person will. Do you envision a third category who will be perfected to the state where they have no need of mercy?

[Guest]

The the problem we have is that we can't handle the knowledge of evil whereas Jesus is able. Here is the verse for my reasoning:

Genesis 3:22 -

22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- Emphasis added.

Good point Micah, i think you hit on something! The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge were both in the midst of the garden yet we partook in the tree which we thought would make us like God instead of trusting God. Now that we obtained the knowledge of evil, how have we handled it?

[Guest]

that is a good point, micah. adam and eve were placed in a pefect environment; there were no bad influences-- until the serpent made his appearance. chirstopher stated earlier that this perhaps didnt take very long-- that maybe within a day of her creation Eve was tempted. so they may have not have had much experience living with the absence of the "knowledge of evil." somehow, when their "eyes were opened" after eating of the frobidden tree, this eye opening experience was transferred to us. either this is somehow transferred to us through birth, or their rebellion is what loosed satan on the world, thereby enabling him to corrupt us at an early age. think about it-- if Satan was not around to tempt us, could we live sinless lives?

TK

[Guest]

Christopher::

Just some thoughts on "original sin".

It seems to me that the main point of the fall of Adam was his expulsion from the garden. Previosly he was able to walk and talk with God , but upon his expulsion he became disconnected. It is this diconnection that we inherit. (along with all the rest of the curses of course) Jesus was the only one exempt as He was always connected.

It is this basic state of being separated from God that lies at the heart of the matter because without it we are “unable by nature to have true fear of God and true faith in God.” , irregardless of how good or bad we behave. It is only the Grace of God that can reconnect us.

One way I have heard it put is that the ultimate goal of redemption is to return to the Garden. Adams fall got us expelled. Christ , the second Adam , gave us the way out. The final act will be to return to the Garden (the New Heavens and New Earth) upon our resurrection.

All of this is apart from actual sin. Salvation does away with original sin by reconnecting us , ends our enslavement to sin by giving us access to God's forgiveness , and gives access to eternal life. It does not do away with our sinning , we remain sinners. Sanctification is the process whereby a christian repents and puts away sin , but this is a lifetime process that is never finished. It should give us humility when dealing with others , christian or not , as all are equally sinners.

Of course you can always re-enslave yourself to sin and lose it all.

The essence of actual sin is selfishness , putting ourselves and our desires ahead of God or other people. So I don't think anyone can ever be entirely free from this. This comes from "the flesh" , even without Satan it would be there.

Thomas

[Guest]

well said, thomas!

TK

[Guest]

I’m getting in a little late on the discussion, so my comments may be obsolete. I too am suspicious of the “sin nature.” Just what did we inherit from Adam? I don’t think it is his guilt. Eze 18 tells us that “the soul who sins is the one who will die” (v 4). We have inherited the flesh of Adam, which is weak with regard to resisting sin.

I have been studying Rom 5-8 a lot lately, and I see what appears to be three entities discussed: the mind, the flesh, and the Spirit. Paul says he once was alive apart from the law and then the law came and he died (Rom 7:9). I take this to be spiritual life and death prior to his acceptance of Christ. He then explains the frustration of having a repentant mind, but only the weak flesh to carry out the mind’s desires. But then Christ came and made possible the indwelling of the Spirit. Paul then had the option of setting his mind on the Spirit, and not caving in to the desires of the flesh (Rom 8:5). I think this may be how Christ was able to live a sinless life. He was able to live by the Spirit because He was filled with the Spirit. This is why He said it was important that He go away so that the Spirit could come (Jn 16:7), to allow us to also be filled with the Spirit and allow us to live as He did, by the Spirit.

As a side note, I think this is how John the Baptist prepared the way for Christ (Lk 1:76) and the gospel. He came preaching repentance from sin and made a bunch of people similar to how Paul describes himself in Rom 7, desiring to do good (repentant toward sin) but unable to do anything about it (no Holy Spirit yet). For these people, the news of the coming Holy Spirit, which Christ made possible, would be Good News.

Just some thoughts.

[Guest]

I’m getting in a little late on the discussion, so my comments may be obsolete. I too am suspicious of the “sin nature.” Just what did we inherit from Adam? I don’t think it is his guilt.

I don't think it's his guilt, either. I think what we have inherited from Adam is a nature which has a tendency toward sin, a disposition toward serving one's self, rather than a disposition toward righteousness, toward serving others and submitting to God.

[Guest]

I've read some pretty good answers and opinions on this topic in this thread supporting the traditional view of an inherited "sin nature".

I still tend to agree that there is something in us inherited by Adam that makes us more prone to sin, but I can't quite pin down from scripture what exactly that is. The strongest verses I can find so far is are found in Romans 5, but I'm not entirely certain that it is saying what we read into it by our "sin nature" lenses. It seems to be talking more about death as a curse than a tendency toward sin.

I still think there is room to suggest that Adam and Eve had the exact same nature that we do (namely flesh), and that the real nature of the curse is being cut off from easy life in the garden and more importantly, access to the tree of life, resulting in death for all. After all, Adam and Eve only had one temptation to resist, we have a whole barrage of them. In fact, one of the verses in Romans says:

Rom 5:20
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.
NKJV

Perhaps it seems like we are more prone to sin than Adam because the curse of a harder life tends to bring more temptation and we have a whole lot more to resist. It may be also, that part of the curse was God allowing Satan more access to people in order to tempt them. I don't know.

Job may be a good example and a type of this. He had a pretty easy life and was considered "upright" before he was afflicted with numerous things from Satan. After things got hard, it seems he began calling God's motives into question and God had to rebuke him. Although he never cursed God, he did seem to have a greater temptation to question Him when the going got rough. Same flesh, different circumstance.

Again, I could be totally cracked on this, but it all has to do with the question of whether Jesus had the same nature as we do yet overcame it, or that He did not have a sin nature as we do and therefore was not "prone" to sin like we are. The former seems more impressive, but either way I think He can still sympathize with our temptations since he took on flesh.

Any further thoughts?