replacement theology

[_Allyn]

Something I have been thinking about and really throws a monkey wrench into the dispensational thinking, I believe, is that if all Jews someday return to Israel, according to how dispensationalists believe, this would require every single Jew, right? This would then require that all Jews whether they know they are Jews or not would walk lock-step to the land of Israel to claim their "rightful" position in the scheme of things. This would mean that no matter how much of Abraham's blood you have flowing in your veins, a molecule or a gallon, you, if a Jew, would then high-tail-it to Israel so that the rest of the "prophecy" could be fulfilled. This could mean that I may not know I am a Jew, but I still must go. I may be an Israeli, an Arab, a Chinaman, Spainard, English, and so on. If I am fighting with my "brother" the man from Israel, weather I am Hezbohlla or Iraqi, Asain or caucacian (sp) I must realize that I am a Jew and skidaddle.

How does the Bible sort all this out for the dispensationalist? I have heard some say that the world will get so bad for the Jew that he will want to go to Israel. Does this make sense in light of the fact that nobody knows how much of Abrahams blood they have? Does this make sense that no matter the fact that farmer so and so in Nebraska never knew he was Jewish, he must find out wthat he is and ride that tractor all the way to Israel?

I just can't figure out the logic to all this. Maybe somebody can help me. Someone will say, "God knows" and yes He does but does that answer the question?

[Guest]

Thanks Ely for clarifying your position.

I won't pose any challenges to your points since I think that's already been covered by Mort and yourself in another thread.

My main point was to reveal the inaccuracy of such a pejorative term like "replacement theology" which is typically used only to mock and belittle another viewpoint.

I haven't seen that from you though. I enjoyed reading the discussion between you and Mort and I thought it maintained a very charitible and respectful tone.

Lord bless.

Ed Hindson is definitely one that likes to throw "anti-Semitism" around and attach it to anyone who claims that there are not 2 distinct lines of prophecy running. It's sickening to see stuff like that pop up in conversations, especially when nothing of the sort is meant.

[Guest]

Al, interesting question. Personally, I'm not expecting a time when every single person who has any of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's blood in them whatsoever, will return to the land. Rather, I'm expecting a time when Israel as a body, will be re-gathered to the land.

Consider the following prophecy from Isaiah 11:

"11 It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea."

As I understand it, you believe that this was referring to the re-gathering in Ezra and Nehemiah's time? So let me ask you: how was this re-gathering to take place? Did Isaiah mean that every single person with any of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob's blood whatsoever was going to return to the land?

[_Allyn]

Ely, I don't expect a regathering anytime. I believe the remnant to be solely believers from all races down through the ages. I don't think I have made any other reference unless it was a literal fulfillment for that day and time. My stance has always been that the "All Israel will be saved" statement by Paul the Apostle is and will continue to be all believers on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ely said:

I'm expecting a time when Israel as a body, will be re-gathered to the land.

Israel as a body of what? Your statement really won't make much sense unless you qualify who Israel is.

You must remember that I am not a dispensationalist and so when they say that all the Jews will come back to the land - and I have had personal talks with many of these people that hold to this view - then I would say that they are the ones who will have to come up with the reasons for their view.

Let me ask you this Ely, since Isaiah 11 is speaking of a secon time, what would the first time be and can you show me why you believe it?

Thanks for the exchange.

[Guest]

Concerning the "first" re-gathering, Isaiah could've been talking about second as in after the Ezra-Nehemiah gathering. However, he could also have been referring to second as in after the Exodus in which case he was refering to the Ezra-Nehemiah return, in which case, he was not talking in that particular chapter about "end times stuff".

But back to the point I was trying to make in order to answer your question.

Ely, I don't expect a regathering anytime. I believe the remnant to be solely believers from all races down through the ages. I don't think I have made any other reference unless it was a literal fulfillment for that day and time. .

Right. Think about the places where (in your opinion) God promised to bring physical Israel back into the physical land. Was He talking about every single person with Jewish blood in them at that time?

[_Allyn]

Concerning the "first" re-gathering, Isaiah could've been talking about second as in after the Ezra-Nehemiah gathering. However, he could also have been referring to second as in after the Exodus in which case he was refering to the Ezra-Nehemiah return, in which case, he was not talking in that particular chapter about "end times stuff".

I think there is a way to know.
Concerning the question directly, the "second time" of regathering, mentioned in Isaiah 11:11 is not presupposing the gathering from Babylon as the "first time." When Isaiah wrote this, there had been no previous mention in scripture of the Babylonian exile, nor of the subsequent regathering. Isaiah's audience would not have had any frame of reference for thinking of the "second time" being subsequent to a regathering from Babylon—but there was a historical precedent that would have occurred to them immediately.

In the context, it seems clear that the "first" gathering of His people from foreign oppression was the Exodus itself. From the vantage point of Isaiah's generation, this would be the only historic referent that would make any sense. Besides, a few verses later, Isaiah tells us that the previous gathering was the exodus—"...as it was for Israel in the day that he came up from the land of Egypt" (v.16; the previous verse mentions crossing "the Sea of Egypt...dry-shod").

The "second" exodus is, of course, our salvation. Moses and Elijah, on the mount of transfiguration, discussed with Jesus "the exodus that He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem" (Luke 9:31). Paul likened our salvation to the Israelites' crossing the Red Sea (1 Cor.10:1-6), and there are many other evidences that the New Testament writers saw the cross and the resurrection of Christ as fulfilling the typology of the exodus (e.g., 1 Cor.5:7).

Thus there is no mention here of either the gathering of the Jews from Babylon, in 539 BC, nor of another gathering of the Jews in the end times. It is a reference to the first and second exoduses—the second of which is the exodus of all God's people, Jews and Gentiles, from all nations on earth, out of the bondage of sin and into the kingdom of the Messiah—the new Zion (Heb.12:22-23).

One thing is clear to me, Christians have been historically guilty of minimizing the completed work of Christ and attributing too much to a future period. Like Martha we eagerly affirm “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”, and miss what He has already done and can do in the present age.

So it is clear to me that the Scriptural evidence for the re-gathering of the Jews to the land of Israel in the 20th Century is non-existent. However, it cannot be ignored that God has had a providential hand in allowing the rebirth of the nation in 1948 and has preserved it through ongoing threats. In saying this, I in no way condone any injustices that have been done to achieve these objectives. If the Lord were truly in control of this situation, I believe His solution would involve Semitic brethren dwelling together in unity (e.g. Isaiah 11:6), which is not likely to occur in this present (fallen) age.

God is working out His purpose among the Jews who have regathered in modern Israel, I have no doubt that He is doing so, as I believe that God is working in every significant geopolitical development. I don't know if the re-establishment of Israel as a nation will promote the salvation of the Jews, ultimately, or not. I know only that God is sovereign over nations and rulers, and that He wants all the Jews (as well as Gentiles) to be saved. I do not necessarily see, however, the fulfillment of any specific predicted purpose in this re-establishment.

If the Jews, by obtaining their sovereignty in 1948 could have guaranteed for themselves a just and secure society, such as would prevent any future holocaust, I might see the establishment of modern Israel as an unmixed blessing...though earthly security might rather disincline them, not incline them, toward considering Christ as their Messiah. Unfortunately, not all that they do would stand the ethical scrutiny even of Moses and their own prophets, and the people living in the land are far from secure. The outcome of all of this remains to be seen, and is not predicted anywhere in scripture.
The preceeding was contributed by Steve Gregg

But back to the point I was trying to make in order to answer your question.

Ely, I don't expect a regathering anytime. I believe the remnant to be solely believers from all races down through the ages. I don't think I have made any other reference unless it was a literal fulfillment for that day and time. .

Right. Think about the places where (in your opinion) God promised to bring physical Israel back into the physical land. Was He talking about every single person with Jewish blood in them at that time?

This is what I know Ely, Israel as spoken of as the remnant in the NT is every believer. When the prophets spoke of the remnant returning, whether physical or spiritual, it was all the remnant not necessarily all the people of Israel. The remnant by definition means all of that part. Clear as mud?

[Guest]

When the prophets spoke of the remnant returning, whether physical or spiritual, it was all the remnant not necessarily all the people of Israel. The remnant by definition means all of that part. Clear as mud?

Exactly! So, when a premillennialist speaks of Israel being regathered into the land, we are not necessarily speaking about every single person with the slightest bit of Jewish blood in them. Well, I'm not anyway!

[_Allyn]

When the prophets spoke of the remnant returning, whether physical or spiritual, it was all the remnant not necessarily all the people of Israel. The remnant by definition means all of that part. Clear as mud?

Exactly! So, when a premillennialist speaks of Israel being regathered into the land, we are not necessarily speaking about every single person with the slightest bit of Jewish blood in them. Well, I'm not anyway!

So then, you haven't answered my question as to who Israel is. I asked it a couple of responses back. Who is this Israel that is going to be regathered to the land?

[Guest]

Al,

1. In the Tanakh, the unqualified term "Israel" did not mean necessarily refer to every single person with Jewish blood in them.
2. The Tanakh (in my understanding) speaks of times yet future when "Israel" will be gathered into the promised land.
3. Thus, this "Israel" will not necessarily include every single person with Jewish blood in them.

Who exactly wil this "Israel" comprise of? I don't know. But if the end times period is any time soon, then I would expect that it will include the Jews who are part of the modern state of Israel.

Sorry I can't be more specific than that.

Ely

[_Allyn]

Ely, I am not upset by you referring to me as Al but my name is Allyn.

More importantly, while the Israel of God in the Old Testament was overwhelmingly restricted to the populace of national Israel it has widened since the cross to include all nations. Today, the Gospel is no longer limited to a temporal physical earthly nation, but rather to an eternal heavenly spiritual nation found throughout the globe. That nation (the Israel of God) is called the New Testament “Church,” which transcends every land boundary, ethnic group, color and creed and incorporates every age. It includes Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, free and bond alike, and is God’s only structure on this earth by which man can enter into intimate union with God. Jesus said in Matthew 16:18, “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Many Christian today try to argue that natural Israel will be saved through a different structure, in a different way, and in a different age other than that of the Church in this present day of grace. Such an view is of a relatively recent origin and enjoys absolutely no scriptural support. Scripturally, there is no other provision, arrangement or means ordained of God, current or future, by which the natural seed of Israel will come to Christ beyond that of the Church. There are no alternatives, backdoors or second-chance options. If the Church must be removed in order that a Jewish remnant comes to salvation in a distinct way apart from Christ and without the presence of the Holy Spirit then it must be through the preaching of “another gospel.” Paul of course warned us about such an error in Galatians 1:8, saying, “though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

Jesus said in John 10:1, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.” That sheepfold today is the true Church, but who or what is the door? The answer is found later in the passage, where Jesus said in John 10:7, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.”

The Church is God’s only divine vehicle. Also, there is no distinct future time-period outside of this Church age or subsequent to the return of Christ, which will see natural Israel saved. 2 Corinthians 6:2 says, “behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.” This day that we live in is the final age that offers salvation to the sinner before the ark door closes forever. And similarly in Psalm 95:8 we learn, “To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation.”

The salvation of natural Israelites (to whatever degree) comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, and will be realised in and through the life, death and resurrection of God’s only provision for sin – the Lord Jesus Christ – in this age. Jesus said in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Faith in Christ through the new birth is, and always will be, the only means by which man can enter into covenant with God. Any other method, concept or avenue is an abomination unto God. 2 John 1:9 says, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

The repentant sinner (whether Israeli or Gentile) is thus supernaturally grafted into Christ’s mystical body – the Church. Galatians 6:15-16 says, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule (non-physical, non-racial spiritual new birth experience), peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.”

Q. 1 What is Paul speaking of in this reading?
Q. 2 Who is he specifically speaking to?

A. 1 The whole focus of this passage is the subject of circumcision, and whether it has any bearing upon the issue of salvation.
A. 2 He is speaking to Gentile believers in Galatia.

While this epistle was inspired of the Holy Spirit for the edification and instruction of the Church of Jesus Christ generally, it was initially and principally written to the Galatian Gentile believers. The verses that actually precede Paul’s reference to “the Israel of God” makes it clear that his counsel was primarily directed to those Galatian saints who were experiencing hostility from certain Jews for not being physically circumcised. Paul was thus specifically addressing the issue of circumcision, warning the Galatian Gentile believers against the mistaken crusade of these misguided Judadizers who were attempting to put them under bondage by compelling them to be circumcised. Paul says of such, in Galatians 6:12-13, “As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh (speaking of the Jews), they constrain you (Galatian Gentile believers) to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. For neither they themselves who are circumcised (namely the Jews) keep the law; but desire to have you (Gentiles) circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.”

From these introductory comments on his teaching on “the Israel of God” we can clearly identify Paul’s audience. His recipients are indeed uncircumcised Gentiles. Paul indeed declares, “they constrain you to be circumcised” (v12); and repeats, they “desire to have you circumcised”(v13). Paul then explains (in verse 15) that ones natural Jewish ancestry or physical appearance has absolutely nothing to do with his standing before God, rather it is his spiritual birthright only. He says, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.” Those that would argue that a man’s natural race carries any merit or virtue before God when it comes to salvation or that it in any way adds anything to a man’s spiritual status are severely censured by this passage. The reading declares, “And as many as walk according to this rule” (what rule?) – the non-racial new birth experience, – then “peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.” Only the second birth can create “a new creature,” nothing else.

One’s birthplace, stock, color or surname can never produce “a new creature”. Christ made it clear in John 3:6, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Those alone who walk according to this rule are exclusively assured of the “peace” and “mercy” Paul speaks of. To suppose a Christ-rejecting Jew or Gentile (however righteous his good works) can walk in the “peace” and “mercy” of God is a delusion and a blatant distortion of Christ’s teaching. Sadly, the Christ-rejecting Jew to this day still foolishly puts his trust in “the works of the law.”Such a person is deceived of the devil and therefore outside of God’s “peace” and “mercy.” Paul exposed such people in Galatians 2:16, saying, “a man is not justified by the works of the law … for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” The vast bulk of Israelites since the Cross (as Gentiles) have rejected Christ’s one all-sufficient sacrifice for sin and are therefore bound for a Christless hell and eternal punishment. Christ (the Prince of Peace and the source of all mercy) gave no spiritual hope for the unregenerate man regardless of how distinguished his nationality or honourable his upbringing. Any way, no one in Scripture outside of the new-born child of God is presented as being qualified to enjoy the “peace” and “mercy” of God. Every Jew and Gentile that is not born again is on the broad-road to hell. Jesus made it clear in John 3:3, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Our Dispensational brethren attempt to create two peoples of God in this reading in order to sustain their school of thought, despite the fact that Paul's whole import in this reading is that there is only one people of God.

Dispensationalists are keen to create an ethnic division within the body of Christ. However, this is forbidden in the New Testament and is prohibited in the actual text before us. Any division that existed has been done away “in Christ Jesus” and His substitutionary atonement on the Cross. Those who have experienced the new birth and have become “a new creature” are those that are identified here as “the Israel of God.” This is a spiritual community where “circumcision” or “uncircumcision” means nothing. One’s race or physical condition carries no special favour with God in our age. Paul has gone out of his way to make this clear in the preface to his comments on “the Israel of God.” He carefully and plainly demolishes such an mistaken notion.

There is not one canon of faith for Jewish Christians and another canon of faith for Gentile Christians. All are now one in Christ. This is the whole thrust of Paul’s teaching here and repeatedly throughout the New Testament. That’s why he explicitly declares in the passage under discussion, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

The nation of Israel as a physical people enjoys no promises or no salvation outside of Christ. There are no exemptions for any race outside of God’s sole provision. There are no promises or inheritances outside of faith in Christ and what He has purchased for the sinner at Calvary. For “in Christ” and “through Christ” and “by Christ” is every spiritual blessing acquired. There is only one way by which sinful man can be reconciled to God. Romans 5:10 identifies it, saying, “we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” Christ's substitutionary sacrifice provides reconciliation for everyone that believes – regardless of what ethnic group they belong to.

The rule and standard of faith and practice that sinful man must recognize is that he, being a vile sinner (regardless of nationality), must be born again of the Spirit of God, enabling him to become a “new creature.” He must recognise that God is no respecter of persons and that his natural birthright in no way qualifies him for the favour of God. There has only ever been one way of salvation throughout time, regardless of one’s lineage, birthplace or birth-date (i.e. before or after Christ’s earthly ministry). Man is assuredly saved by grace, not by race.

I am not sure how you really believe concerning the Jew since I don't get a straight answer from you. However, you must either believe the All Israel from Romans is comprised of only Jews or they are the Israel of the olive branch. I wonder which one of these two you choose?