Ask an atheist—but don't expect any straight answers!

Post by **_TK** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:54 pm

Let's see: ESP, alien mind-control, repressed memory, coincidence, the power of suggestion, the subconscious altering of events to make them "fit" your list, etc etc etc.

Glow, you wont find many Christians (including me) doubting that your experience was from God. but you don't really expect Asimov to agree that you had a vision from God, do you? there are so many alternative explanations.

i brought out on another thread somewhere that I used to debate with an agnostic that i worked with. i asked him what he would think if they discovered the remains of a giant boat on Mt ararat that fit the dimensions of noahs ark as described in the Bible. he said he would still refuse to believe it was noah's ark for a variety of reasons, all of which i cannot remember. the point is that w/o faith, there is no reason to believe what seems obvious to us who have faith.

I suspect that Asimov would be skeptical even if he was personally visited, just as Scrooge was skeptical of Mr Marley's visit.

so i guess my question for asimov is "what would it take to affirmatively convince you that God exists?" i suppose a subjective experience may be convincing to you if you were wholeheartedly convinced of its truth, but i am not sure what your view is on the matter. but i'd like to hear what you have to say on the subject.

TK

Post by **_glow** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:22 pm

TK and others

I am way past being concerned what others think regarding my experience whether they "approve" of it or not. It is solid to me and my family as truth. I stand on it for the Lord. I just thought I would tell him of a real experience I had with the Lord and lay it in His lap. Seeds to plant.

What he wants to think or say about it doesn't really matter to me. I tell of this experience becasue I love the Lord and know how real he is to myself and my family. I have had other experiences with the Lord similar to this through out my life , but this one was the most dramatic that included folks beyond me.

The things that were told to me in the dream were things completely unknown to any of us, It was truely a wonder and blessed time in our lives. Glow

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:48 pm

Thanks Glow.

Post by **_Asimov** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:55 pm

glow wrote:What would you call this?

Selective evidence.

Post by **_Asimov** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:11 am

TK wrote:Let's see: ESP, alien mind-control, repressed memory, coincidence, the power of suggestion, the subconscious altering of events to make them "fit" your list, etc etc etc.

Eh, no. A huge possibility would be entirely coincidence. I think it's interesting that glow specifically defined all "20 things" as things that they couldn't possibly have done on their own.

I cannot exactly comment on the event since I wasn't there, have no way of confirming any of it or verifying any of this information, and I cannot objectively make any remarks.

In essence, personal testimony is strictly that...personal testimony. It relies on the feelings of the person and the causal chain of events that led to her situation now cannot exactly be fully examined.

I would also wonder how many unanswered prayers glow has had.

Glow, you wont find many Christians (including me) doubting that your experience was from God. but you don't really expect Asimov to agree that you had a vision from God, do you? there are so many alternative explanations.

Please explain why I should believe that the vision was from God? How do you get from:

I made a prayer and it came true

to

It must have been the Holy Spirit.

There's something missing in between that connects the premise to the conclusion.

I asked him what he would think if they discovered the remains of a giant boat on Mt ararat that fit the dimensions of noahs ark as described in the Bible. he said he would still refuse to believe it was noah's ark for a variety of reasons, all of which i cannot remember. the point is that w/o faith, there is no reason to believe what seems obvious to us who have faith.

A boat being found on a mountain doesn't prove anything, especially if there is no geographical evidence to corroborate such an event. We could only conclude that there is some truth to the mythology surrounding that area.

The problem in that sense would be that you conclude the truth of an event, and then would look for anything that confirms that belief.

so i guess my question for asimov is "what would it take to affirmatively convince you that God exists?" i suppose a subjective experience may be convincing to you if you were wholeheartedly convinced of its truth, but i am not sure what your view is on the matter. but i'd like to hear what you have to say on the subject.

I'm a person who fully admits when I'm wrong. I have no problem or ego that prevents me from that.

I'm a person who values integrity and who values reason. I value intellectual honesty.

If God exists, wishes me to come to him and enter into a relationship with him then I suspect he knows exactly what it would take to convince me. I do not know and I cannot know. There are no valid arguments for the objective existence of God. There is no valid evidence for the objective existence of God.

Everything I observe and study and see points that God is a subjective being, intrinsic to the individual. A creation of their own minds.

Even if God were to be proven to exist...how do you get from God existing to Christianity?

Faith? I don't operate on faith in the religious or in the non-evidential sense. As a rational person, as an intellectual person, I cannot accept what is proffered by theists.

Post by **_Allyn** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:11 am

Coincidence? then I'll take all the coincidence I can get. I have many real life experiences I could share and one miracle when my life was saved from a near fall. Something saved my fall that wasn't there before and witnesses to boot.
Coincidence? I'll take all I can get.

Post by **_JC** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:59 am

Asimov, I challenge the assertion that you don't believe in miracles. You believe that non life miraculously spawned life. You believe in abiogenesis even though it can't be proven. You believe that random matter collected itself to form complex units, which later mutated upward, violating several laws of nature, to become more and more complex. You believe our thoughts and intellegence are merely recognized patterns of matter, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I know you believe these things because I've read most of your posts.

Post by **_glow** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:48 pm

Hi All

Well actually most of all my prayers have been answered. But I don't always pray specifically I'd like this or that. I have learned over the years to lay my requests at my Lords feet so to say and give it up to him. Then I wait for the answer. Some manefest quite quickly some have taken years for His response. But I am always kind of amazed when I do recieve an answer because it has wisdom in it and the timing is impecable to me.

It's not like a candy machine where you put in your request and expect to get exactly what you want. The vision I had on the move etc. was xtra special because we put prayers up to the Lord about simple things we liked etc. that were not specific as far as the state etc. It was all done quite innocently.He did tell me specific names of roads showed me maps of them, the inside of the house where things were located in it etc etc.

Even events into the future connected with it through people calling us on the phone there and telling us things. Stuff we would "never " have known about beforehand.But it showed us and we kind of laughed about it that God was the greatest realtor because he knew exactly where everything was on the planet and the folks near by etc and only He knew just how to guide us to the right place, several hundred miles away.

I remember when we were trying to find the towns name I looked and looked on maps etc for weeks of the state he gave me, and I finally came across it. It wasn't usually on maps because the town was unincorperated and maps usually didn't show it. I never even knew about unincorperated towns, on maps etc.The day we drove into that town and saw the sign up for it , if I never really knew I had an individual spirit within me I did at that moment because it leaped inside me. It blew me away! I could go on but I don't think I need to for anyones sake really. I just was sharing it with you.

I appreciate Asimov you are a seeker and use your mind. It's God given and you will connect with Him sooner or later....God Bless Glow

Post by **_Allyn** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:59 pm

I loved everything you said Glow and your last sentence was right on. I do have one small matter to ask you. Did you move to Nebraska because everybody knows that Nebraska is the only place to live.

Post by **_glow** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:58 pm

without turning this into chat, a quick answer... nope, moved to wisconsin ! lol.....its a beautiful state