Does a real christian not struggle with habitual sins?

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:18 pm

After considerable study, it is my sincere belief that this passage in James is in reference to spiritual problems rather than physical illness as popularly taught.
After reading what you wrote, it was very tempting for me to accept your point of view on James 5:14-16. Your view seems better to fit people's experience.

Apparantly "astheinei" (Strong's 770) DOES mean "weak" in many places in the New Testament. I would like to be convinced that the word also means "weak" in this context, but I do not have enough evidence yet to come to that conclusion.

The word means "sick" in many places. For example, it almost certainly means "sick" in the following passages:

Luke 4:40, John 4:46, 5:3, 5:7, 11:1, and Philippians 2:7.

Homer, is the fact that the passage in James does not appear to be true for everyone who has tried it, the only reason you do not accept the word as meaning "sick" in that context?

Or do you have a textual reason for thinking it means "weak" in the James passage?
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

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_Evangelion
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Re: Does a real christian not struggle with habitual sins?

Post by _Evangelion » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:15 pm

Beaver wrote:I was told that a real born again christian can simply ask God for the strength and grace to overcome sin and then God will give it to him!

This means that no born again christian could possible struggle with sin the way it is described in romans 7. Is this true? :cry:

Then maybe I am not even born again. :cry:
The apostle Paul was one of the greatest Christians of all time, yet he struggled with sin. Romans 7 proves it.

If Christians did not struggle with sin, we would not need the ongoing forgiveness of God.
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Post by _JC » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:02 pm

I'd like to share something that I learned the hard way: You can only really focus on one thing at any given time. When I read scripture or listen to one of Steve's lectures I don't generally think about sinning. Yet, when I've gone even a day without "instruction" I start to fall back into my old ways.

Jesus said the words he spoke were spirit and life. Our feeble minds need to be reminded of his teachings daily. If you go without food your body will break down. When you go without spending time with God then your spirit breaks down the same way. You need nourishment, which is to be continually taken in.

When Jesus was tempted by Satan he was very hungry, yet responded by saying man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. When Jesus was temped he considered spiritual nourishment more important than physical nourishment. We should do likewise. In a real, practical sense we commit ourselves to daily prayer and reading God's word. If your mind is focused on spiritual things it won't be focused on carnal things.
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Post by _Evangelion » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:07 pm

JC wrote:I'd like to share something that I learned the hard way: You can only really focus on one thing at any given time. When I read scripture or listen to one of Steve's lectures I don't generally think about sinning. Yet, when I've gone even a day without "instruction" I start to fall back into my old ways.

Jesus said the words he spoke were spirit and life. Our feeble minds need to be reminded of his teachings daily. If you go without food your body will break down. When you go without spending time with God then your spirit breaks down the same way. You need nourishment, which is to be continually taken in.

When Jesus was tempted by Satan he was very hungry, yet responded by saying man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. When Jesus was temped he considered spiritual nourishment more important than physical nourishment. We should do likewise. In a real, practical sense we commit ourselves to daily prayer and reading God's word. If your mind is focused on spiritual things it won't be focused on carnal things.
Amen!

Our minds are renewed by the washing of the Word.

Without it, we return to the mire.
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Post by _Royal Oddball 2:9 » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:10 pm

One more word of encouragement, Beaver?

The Sermon on the Mount has many levels of meaning, but in my recent studies on it, I saw the following: Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit." I believe spiritual poverty comes when we realize how sinful we are and how much we are absolutely dependent on God for deliverance.

He went on to say, "Blessed are those who mourn," which seems to be your state of mind right now -- mourning your sinfulness.

Further down, He says, "Blessed are the peacemakers." I believe peacemakers can mean those who make their peace with God by repenting -- which you probably knows means changing your mind. Instead of enjoying sin, you begin to see how much it's destroying you, which is why God hates it so much.

I know it may sound odd to say this, but you're in a good spot right now, realizing and mourning over your sin, blessed in more ways than one. Just thought maybe it would help a little to know that, if you don't already. Relax and let God work in you. Being a son of God is so awesome!

And by the way, your honesty and willingness to be vulnerable on this forum is inspirational to me . . .
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Post by _Homer » Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:08 am

Paidion,

You asked:
Homer, is the fact that the passage in James does not appear to be true for everyone who has tried it, the only reason you do not accept the word as meaning "sick" in that context?

Or do you have a textual reason for thinking it means "weak" in the James passage?
Several things, textual and otherwise, cause me to believe James 5:14-15 to be about spiritual sickness (weakness).

If the context is considered, in James 5:7-11 James urges patience, "establish (make stable) your hearts", perserverence under suffering, and he cautioned them about grumbling against one another. He reminds them how the prophets endured suffering. It seems to me he was concerned they might grow weary and fall into sin. In v. 13 they are urged to pray if they are suffering. I see v. 14-15 to be an instruction about what to do if weary of the struggle and the statement "if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven" implies repentance and confession to the elders. Then we find in vs. 19-20 an instruction about someone else who has grown weary and fallen into sin.

Then there is the statement to call the elders. Why them in particular if physically ill? Certainly in those days there were people with the gift of healing; there is no reason to think this gift was exclusively given to the elders. And there is no mention of calling a physician. I believe he instructs them to call the elders because the duties of the elders were primarily spiritual in nature.

In the text, the healing appears to be promised. We know Christians often are not healed. Paul was not; did he not know of this instruction? And why did he not apply it himself regarding Timothy and Trophimus?

When I was an elder, we received a request to annoint and pray for healing for a man with terminal cancer. He was convinced he would be healed. We prayed sincerely for his recovery. He again requested this and again we gladly and sincerely prayed for him. He died. Another man who requested the prayers of the church, although he never requested the prayer and anointing as outlined by James, was healed of colon cancer. Three doctors had diagnosed this and examined him prior to surgery and said "there is nothing there but a tiny scar!"

Then two ladies requested prayer and anointing for spiritual problems. We met with them, talked with them, they confessed their struggles, we anointed and prayed for them. One seemed to do well but moved across country and I have lost track of her. The other lady, who was weak and troubled from her past, has blossomed and grown amazingly.

As mentioned in another post, we have a small church in this area that takes this instruction by James to be about physical illness. They take it to mean medical treatment is forbidden. They are wonderful people and I have no doubt about their sincerity and faith. Two of their children have died of treatable illnesses.

I can not be certain it is in God's will to heal any particular person of physical illness. We see often that He does not answer our prayers for the sick. Will the sincere Christian who has grown weary and may have fallen into sin be "saved" and "raised up" by our Lord if the instructions in James are followed? I have no doubt he will be. 1 Peter 5:10; " But may the God of all grace, who called us to his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered awhile, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you". Exactly. Praise God!
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Post by _Frank » Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:46 am

Homer, I have been following this thread with great interest. I would like to say I agree with you in that James 5: 14, 15 is talking about spiritual sickness, but I also believe it is referring to physical sickness also. I think some times people as human as we are think in human terms and thoughts. But God heals whom He pleases, wheather it be sickness spiritually or physically. We just need to be active in obediance to his word. If it says to lay hands on the sick then we should do it.

In short to keep from rambling on, I accept both laying on of hands and annointing with oil from elders, both for physical and spiritual healing.
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Post by _Christopher » Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:33 am

Homer,

That is pretty compelling case for what you have presented and I'm inclined at this point to agree with you. It seems to fit the context James' exhortations in that chapter....remaining mindful of spiritual things.



Beaver,

you wrote:
This is the problem. In these deciding moments I mess it up. I don't even try to resist. Sometimes I do and fail but many times I don't even have much resistance. And then later I think how am I even able to sin, how can I suppress the feeling of guilt for this time? Nobody would steal if he knew that he is being watched, but I can sin even though I know God knows it, how is this possible?


The only thing I would add to the advice of the others here is this. It's important to always keep in mind that when you became a Christian, you enlisted to fight in a war. There are victories and setbacks. It shouldn't surprise us that the closer we get to God, the closer we get to the front-lines of battle also. You had no need to resist when you were in the enemies camp because you were in agreement with him. But now that you have defected, you can expect on-going harassment from kingdom of darkness.


you also wrote:
But I really don't know HOW to have victory. I have tried to gear up my will, it didn't work very long. As soon as I get depressed or frustrated I fail. Or when my relationship with God is disturbed then I also sin much easier because I feel like it doesn't matter anyway because my relationship is already so bad.
A large part of having this victory is perspective. We often think of temptations as a personal battle, and in many respects it is. But that's not the whole of it, just a small part. Gaining victory over sin is contributing to the ultimate purposes of God:

Num 14:21-22
21 but truly, as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD--
NKJV


It's not about us individually, or even the church corporately, but about what our King deserves to rightfully obtain, glory in all the earth. Sin is a hindrance to that end and therefore must be resisted at all costs. It's not about our going to hell or not, but the love we have for our King and the glory He is worthy to have.

I think that may help us to take our focus off of ourselves and place it on glorifying God...where it belongs. The fact is, sin is not altogether unacceptable to us when we're merely looking at personal holiness, because we tend to settle for "good enough". But it becomes increasingly unacceptable when we realize that we rob God of His rightful glory in the world when we, His people, fail to reflect His holiness. That is heartbreakingly tragic and should drive us to anguish over sin and fight it to the death.

You are in my prayers as well.

Lord bless.
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