Chris, I would have to differ with you about the statistics on drinking. Abuse is the norm when it concerns alcohol. Most accidents that are fatal is a result of alcohol abuse. Domestic violence usually is a result of alcohol abuse. Many other statistics will varify what I say. I am far from a legalist, nor am I a liberal when it comes to the use of alcohol. I would say this, if you can drink and do it without conviction after careful prayer and consideration. Then do it.
There are many stern warnings about alcohol abuse in the bible, and I am one who does not have to take another brother down bible memory lane to convey my beliefs and covictions. If you have ever had any weakness concerning temptation, you don't direct anyone to the source or beginning of it. Through Thy precepts I hope I have gained greater understanding concerning alcohol.
I will not try to convince you are anyone else that is a Christian that alcohol is a sin, it is what you do with it that can lead to that sin.
Is there a scriptural case against marijuana use?
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_chriscarani
- Posts: 153
- Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:47 pm
- Location: Ft Collins, CO
I agree with Christopher and glow on this issue. I think it comes down to self control and what you are drinking for. Is to replace something you feel missing, or because you like yourself better a little tipsy or drunk? I would feel guilty if I went out to a bar, even if just on occasion, and got hammered, but I don’t feel guilty enjoying a glass of wine with my wife when we have cooked a nice dinner and are sitting by the fire place. I think these verses specifically talk about the difference between getting drunk and consuming wine.
Ephesians 5:18
And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,
Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,
1 Timothy 3:8
Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
And lastly I think Paul sums it all up here, and I think what some have said in their own words.
Romans 14:14-23
The Law of Love
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things[e]is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.[f] 22 Do you have faith?[g] Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Ephesians 5:18
And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit,
Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money,
1 Timothy 3:8
Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
And lastly I think Paul sums it all up here, and I think what some have said in their own words.
Romans 14:14-23
The Law of Love
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things[e]is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.[f] 22 Do you have faith?[g] Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
WWMTLFSMM
chriscaroni Thankyou for those scriptures. I think you said it beautifully through them and tied it together.
I'd also enjoy a glass of wine in the setting you describe. I actually like the taste of some wines but they give me a headache. So if I drink any wine etc. it is very little, and I actually don't.like the feeling of feeling "out of it".
Gee am i sounding "old here?" or better yet wise ....LOL
Gods judgement I'll take. Thanks all...Glow
I'd also enjoy a glass of wine in the setting you describe. I actually like the taste of some wines but they give me a headache. So if I drink any wine etc. it is very little, and I actually don't.like the feeling of feeling "out of it".
Gee am i sounding "old here?" or better yet wise ....LOL
Gods judgement I'll take. Thanks all...Glow
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
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_Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
I'm really not concerned about alcohol so much as I am the tendency for Christians to create unnecessary "yolks" for others.
TK said something that underscores this reality in Evangelicalism today:
A person with a sensitive conscious can end up feeling guilty about something that is not sin just because of the stigma that has been unnecessarily created.
Paul said:
1 Cor 10:29-32
For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience? 30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? 31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
NKJV
It's not our own conscience we protect, it's others. Why? Because truth hasn't set them free. But you hear preachers today perpetuating this with what I'll call "soft condemnation" (for lack of a better term). Not an outright declaration that drinking or smoking are sin (in most cases), but a strong suggestion that you're not living up to what God wants for you if you do not abstain from these "vices". They think they're doing everyone a favor by placing a buffer around the real sin...drunkenness. The problem is, the devil gets a lot of mileage out of making people feel condemned for something that isn't sin. It's like a another weapon he can use to alienate us from God. And we're just giving it to him free of charge.
The funny thing is, when you get right down to it, there are lots of things that can be just as destructive peoples lives. For example, it can be pretty devastating to a family to lose their bread winner to skin cancer, but when's the last time you heard a sermon on the "sin" of sun-bathing? One of the top killers in America is heart disease, but BBQ ribs and fried chicken are staples at church potlucks. The list can go on and on. Do we say that people should carefully pray about whether to partake of these things?
I agree that the bible has a lot of stern warnings against the abuse of alcohol and I certainly don't want to play down the devastation that has been the result of such abuse. However, I would have to stand by my earlier statement that I don't believe it's the norm. My experience has been that the majority of people that drink do not have a problem. For those that do, I would definitely say abstain completely. But I would give the same advice for any habitual sin.
I would still say that it's a good idea to not drink alcohol at all. But I also think it's a good idea to stay away from caffeine, sugar, sun exposure, etc. I just don't want to create a stigma on any of these things because I don't want to put any other yolk on my fellow Christians other than what Jesus puts on them.
Marijuana? That's pretty easy. It's ILLEGAL. Therefore to use it is sin. Since God didn't command us to use it, but did command us to obey the authorities, we're not at liberty to use it IMO.
Well, as Forest Gump would say: That's all I have to say about that.
TK said something that underscores this reality in Evangelicalism today:
In fundamentalist Christian America, you can expect to be judged if you drink, smoke, or don't go to church on Sunday. None of which is sin biblically. These things have become our modern day "meat sacrificed to idols".the problem with drinking alcohol if you are a evangelical protestant is that there is such a strong bias against it (which may be fine) that it is difficult NOT to feel convicted about drinking it, even if God Himself does not frown on a person taking a taste of alcohol short of drunkenness. in other words, it takes a lot of willpower not to feel conviction if you want to drink a glass of wine.
A person with a sensitive conscious can end up feeling guilty about something that is not sin just because of the stigma that has been unnecessarily created.
Paul said:
1 Cor 10:29-32
For why is my liberty judged by another man's conscience? 30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? 31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
NKJV
It's not our own conscience we protect, it's others. Why? Because truth hasn't set them free. But you hear preachers today perpetuating this with what I'll call "soft condemnation" (for lack of a better term). Not an outright declaration that drinking or smoking are sin (in most cases), but a strong suggestion that you're not living up to what God wants for you if you do not abstain from these "vices". They think they're doing everyone a favor by placing a buffer around the real sin...drunkenness. The problem is, the devil gets a lot of mileage out of making people feel condemned for something that isn't sin. It's like a another weapon he can use to alienate us from God. And we're just giving it to him free of charge.
The funny thing is, when you get right down to it, there are lots of things that can be just as destructive peoples lives. For example, it can be pretty devastating to a family to lose their bread winner to skin cancer, but when's the last time you heard a sermon on the "sin" of sun-bathing? One of the top killers in America is heart disease, but BBQ ribs and fried chicken are staples at church potlucks. The list can go on and on. Do we say that people should carefully pray about whether to partake of these things?
I agree that the bible has a lot of stern warnings against the abuse of alcohol and I certainly don't want to play down the devastation that has been the result of such abuse. However, I would have to stand by my earlier statement that I don't believe it's the norm. My experience has been that the majority of people that drink do not have a problem. For those that do, I would definitely say abstain completely. But I would give the same advice for any habitual sin.
I would still say that it's a good idea to not drink alcohol at all. But I also think it's a good idea to stay away from caffeine, sugar, sun exposure, etc. I just don't want to create a stigma on any of these things because I don't want to put any other yolk on my fellow Christians other than what Jesus puts on them.
Marijuana? That's pretty easy. It's ILLEGAL. Therefore to use it is sin. Since God didn't command us to use it, but did command us to obey the authorities, we're not at liberty to use it IMO.
Well, as Forest Gump would say: That's all I have to say about that.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
That was an excellent call Christopher. Something you said was quite interesting:
While the principle was initially a good one, the pharisees went too far by binding their traditions upon the people as an oppressive burden rather than an aid to Torah observance. Eventually, the traditions became more important than the Torah and in places where the two contradicted eachother, the pharisees taught the people to go with their traditons rather than the Torah.
This is a danger we face today. The scriptures contain many positive statements concerning the use of wine (some of which I gave in a previous post). In people's zeal to oppose the sin of drunkeness, we have to ignore this positive divine testimony and instead focus solely on the negatives testimony it gives us concerning too much wine.
As with so many things in this called-out life, it's about balance and being led by the Spirit.
The following is IMO an excellent discussion of the issue of alcohol and the Bible: http://wooga.drbacchus.com/bible/alcohol.html
ybiM,
Ely
This was exactly the problem that Jesus had with the scribes and pharisees. Their traditions were a set of man-made laws and commandments designed to stop people from trangsressing the Torah. They figured that if people could have a safeguard, then they definitely wouldn't transgress the Torah. These traditions were known as a fence around the Torah.They think they're doing everyone a favor by placing a buffer around the real sin...drunkenness.
While the principle was initially a good one, the pharisees went too far by binding their traditions upon the people as an oppressive burden rather than an aid to Torah observance. Eventually, the traditions became more important than the Torah and in places where the two contradicted eachother, the pharisees taught the people to go with their traditons rather than the Torah.
This is a danger we face today. The scriptures contain many positive statements concerning the use of wine (some of which I gave in a previous post). In people's zeal to oppose the sin of drunkeness, we have to ignore this positive divine testimony and instead focus solely on the negatives testimony it gives us concerning too much wine.
As with so many things in this called-out life, it's about balance and being led by the Spirit.
The following is IMO an excellent discussion of the issue of alcohol and the Bible: http://wooga.drbacchus.com/bible/alcohol.html
ybiM,
Ely
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
"Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus" Titus 2:13
www.lasttrumpet.com
www.pfrs.org
www.lasttrumpet.com
www.pfrs.org
First, Let me say that when one is set free, He is set free indeed and from the bodage of sin. Jesus yoke is easy and His burden is light. I would never try to cause anyone to be under any bondage. As suggested. In fact I have been annointed to set the captives free. If someone is in bondage and a yoke is around their neck, it is because of them and not someone else. It always amazes me how people look at someone who is against a vice as being judgemental.
I see where Christopher on one hand he says his exsperience has been that the majority of people that drink do not have a problem. I would say that from my exsperience the majority of people who do drink end up with problems. For a little backround on my exsperience. I was a missionary pastor for 9 years in the largest mobile home park in the state of Georgia. Before that I ministerd to the homless in the Atlanta union mission and street people for about 5 years. I did evangelism in a mill town for two years. Also for 2 years prision ministry. There were 4 things they all had in comon that permiated their life. Alcohol, Adultry /Sexual immorality. Drugs And slothfulness.
In our world of Christiandome as you might call it. These things still abound. The problem a lot of times they are never addressed and the cycle continues on. They are not set free and tolerance has surpassed freedom.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8: 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. V10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idols temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldend to eat those things offerd to idols? V11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? V13 Therefore, If food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
I agree with you Christopher about some other things than destroys the temple and is just as much a sin. It bothers me also when a overweight out of shape minister stands in the pulpit and preaches against the vices of smoking, drinking and the like when gluttony is killing him.
I still believe in the Holyness of God and like some of you have said, In all we do whether we eat or drink, do it for the glory of God. I try to live holy in my conduct as it says, but I fall short many times and that is where the grace of God takes over.
I would like to leave you with this question. I know that you have stated how you feel on this matter, Ely, Christopher and who else would like to respond or not.
Suppose one night or evening, you were out eating and enjoying a glass of wine with the spouse and out of the corner of your eye you saw Billy Graham and your pastor, if you have one? They walk up to the bar and order two alcoholic beverages. What would be your first thought and how would you feel?
I see Liberty, in that I am no longer a slave to sin or the things that lead me to sin in my old life and now I am a slave to righteousness.
And if that is the case then I am to do my best to lead others down that same path with out being a sumbling block.
P.S. I know that I am one of the new kids on the block, so try to be gentle with me.
I see where Christopher on one hand he says his exsperience has been that the majority of people that drink do not have a problem. I would say that from my exsperience the majority of people who do drink end up with problems. For a little backround on my exsperience. I was a missionary pastor for 9 years in the largest mobile home park in the state of Georgia. Before that I ministerd to the homless in the Atlanta union mission and street people for about 5 years. I did evangelism in a mill town for two years. Also for 2 years prision ministry. There were 4 things they all had in comon that permiated their life. Alcohol, Adultry /Sexual immorality. Drugs And slothfulness.
In our world of Christiandome as you might call it. These things still abound. The problem a lot of times they are never addressed and the cycle continues on. They are not set free and tolerance has surpassed freedom.
Paul said in 1 Corinthians 8: 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. V10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idols temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldend to eat those things offerd to idols? V11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? V13 Therefore, If food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
I agree with you Christopher about some other things than destroys the temple and is just as much a sin. It bothers me also when a overweight out of shape minister stands in the pulpit and preaches against the vices of smoking, drinking and the like when gluttony is killing him.
I still believe in the Holyness of God and like some of you have said, In all we do whether we eat or drink, do it for the glory of God. I try to live holy in my conduct as it says, but I fall short many times and that is where the grace of God takes over.
I would like to leave you with this question. I know that you have stated how you feel on this matter, Ely, Christopher and who else would like to respond or not.
Suppose one night or evening, you were out eating and enjoying a glass of wine with the spouse and out of the corner of your eye you saw Billy Graham and your pastor, if you have one? They walk up to the bar and order two alcoholic beverages. What would be your first thought and how would you feel?
I see Liberty, in that I am no longer a slave to sin or the things that lead me to sin in my old life and now I am a slave to righteousness.
And if that is the case then I am to do my best to lead others down that same path with out being a sumbling block.
P.S. I know that I am one of the new kids on the block, so try to be gentle with me.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Servant of the Lord
Hi Frank
It is nice to hear from you. In regards to your question if I was there drinking wine myself, I would have to be in a place where within me I was comfortable with it with God and myself. If I saw billy Graham etc. ordering a drink, I would not judge but observe that they must have felt peace within themselves with it also.
Saying that though, I agree with alot of what Christopher said except I also do not know if I believe most folks who drink, do so with care and conviction. I am trying to keep the judgments on myself and God and these outside judgments between followers and God themselves. If I knew of some one around me who was fighting that particular addition, I would not indulge in it in front of them.
I have been put in that place in other areas including eating meat in front of a vegetarian, which I personally asked them if it would offend them if I did. They had no problem with it, so I ate..
I Find it personally very easy to go over board in judging others so if it is not black and white to me I try and keep my vision on myself. I can understand with the life you have led why your convictions are so strong and I commend you on being so faithful to them......Glow
It is nice to hear from you. In regards to your question if I was there drinking wine myself, I would have to be in a place where within me I was comfortable with it with God and myself. If I saw billy Graham etc. ordering a drink, I would not judge but observe that they must have felt peace within themselves with it also.
Saying that though, I agree with alot of what Christopher said except I also do not know if I believe most folks who drink, do so with care and conviction. I am trying to keep the judgments on myself and God and these outside judgments between followers and God themselves. If I knew of some one around me who was fighting that particular addition, I would not indulge in it in front of them.
I have been put in that place in other areas including eating meat in front of a vegetarian, which I personally asked them if it would offend them if I did. They had no problem with it, so I ate..
I Find it personally very easy to go over board in judging others so if it is not black and white to me I try and keep my vision on myself. I can understand with the life you have led why your convictions are so strong and I commend you on being so faithful to them......Glow
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Glow, thanks for being real and honest. The average Christian would not have responded the way you did with the questions in all honesty. I will be honest with you, that I do not find a lot of grey areas when it comes living life. A lot of people would consider my life boring and maybe old fasion, but I love my Lord and my motives are pure.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Servant of the Lord