sleep or new life after death

Post by **_glow** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:54 pm

thank you for all your replies.

Yikes. I have alot of thinking and praying to do to have it all make sense to me I must admit. You folks sure like to debate and share your insights. I am really enjoying your responses and appreciative you put so much into them.

Thanks Glow

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:57 am

Ecc 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

I would think that this statement may also include "no thought or conscienceness."

Todd

Post by **_Homer** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:32 pm

Paidion,

You said:

Doesn't this passage support the truth that when you're dead, you're dead ---- until the resurrection? John saw in his vision the souls (beings) who had nor worshiped the beast. Then they came to life. Prior to this, they had been dead.

So how do you see the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration? Were they resurrected for this event, and if so did they remain resurrected? If so, how then could Jesus be the "firstfruits" of the resurrection? Wouldn't they have been "first"? Or did they go back to being dead? Or was it their spirits that made an appearance, spirits that hadn't been sleeping? Or did their spirits come to life only to be put back to sleep?

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:56 am

Homer consider this:

Matthew 17:1-9 describes a scene at what is called “the Mount of Transfiguration,” where Jesus conversed with Moses and Elijah. God was preparing Jesus for the challenge of his upcoming suffering. This scene was not a literal reality, but what Jesus plainly said was a “vision.”

Matthew 17:9
And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

Biblically, a vision is a spiritual phenomenon in which God causes something to appear to a person, either in his mind’s eye or to his physical eyes. (Some Scriptural examples are 2 Kings 6:17; Acts 10:9-20; 2 Cor. 12:1-4.)

Being a vision, it in no way means that Moses and Elijah made a special guest appearance from heaven where they had been hanging around since leaving earth. To be consistent with the biblical evidence, including Jesus’ statement that no man but he “hath ascended up to heaven” (John 3:13), the same must be said of Moses and Elijah as was said of David in Acts 2:34—they are not “ascended into the heavens.”

Post by **_glow** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:48 pm

Maybe I am way off here, but wouldnt Jesus be telling them "HE" christ is the vision. So not to speak of Him until His ressurection? I don't see why the 2 men would be the vision. just wondering Glow

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:36 pm

Glow, I don't get you at all on this. Jesus was certainly no vision.

Post by **_glow** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:00 pm

ok The way I was reading you on this is: You were saying (I thought) a vision is "seen" not actually real in the flesh. So If Jesus is telling the other two the experience they are having in "seeing" him is a vision, than he would be the one who really wasn't there. I am sorry , I am having trouble explaining my confusion. I may jusy have to let this one go....Glow

Post by **_Homer** » Mon Jun 26, 2006 11:32 pm

Jesusfollower,

You would be better served if you read the biblical acconts yourself rather than tirelessly posting and/or repeating the "Truth or Traditions" stuff. If you did you might have noticed something.

You (or rather they) said of the transfiguration:

This scene was not a literal reality, but what Jesus plainly said was a “vision.”

The Greek word horama, translated "vision", literally means "that which is seen" and denotes a spectacle, sight, appearance, vision. In the NASB in Acts 7:31 it is translated "sight" in reference to the burning bush seen by Moses. Are we to believe there was no reality in the burning bush? If it was a mere vision and not real, why would the physical ground be declared Holy? (see Exodus 3)

If you had checked Luke's description of the transfiguration you might have noticed (Luke 9:28-36) that Jesus was transfigured and speaking to Moses and Elijah while Peter, John, and James were asleep! Would you have us believe Jesus wasn't actually transfigured and didn't actually speak to anyone? And then Luke informs us that when Peter, John, and James were fully awake "they saw His glory and the two men standing with Him." I thought the whole thing actually happened! Moses and Elijah, law giver and law restorer, appeared to "lay down their mantle at Jesus feet"!

You also posted:

Being a vision, it in no way means that Moses and Elijah made a special guest appearance from heaven where they had been hanging around since leaving earth.

Who said that was where they "had been hanging around"?

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:28 am

Maybe you, Homer, should instead of repeating the Orthodox stuff you have heard everywhere, if you go to try to glean from the scriptures what God is trying to convey to us. It was a vision, why was it Holy Ground? there is a stretch if I ever heard one. It could not have been burning, fire burns up the fuel. Your constant berating of my sources do nothing but to show your hatred of the truth. Peters vision of the animals in the net, was that really happening? They had to be "hanging out" somewhere, where was that? Jesus called it a Vision, I don't see your point. More than one person can see a vision.
Try to be consistent when dealing with scripture big H, I think that is how God Authored it, with consistency.
Here are some things that may help you:
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... w_topic=38

This is also very useful:
22 Principles of Biblical Interpretation
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules ... icle&sid=9

If T&T are the people that bring all the pertinent material together in one place I have no problem with that. If you would read some of their stuff you would soon realize that what is being done is bringing together in one place, what has been said throughout history, church fathers, and customs, cultures. And scripture is always the final authority, Not tradition.

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:46 pm

If T&T are the people that bring all the pertinent material together in one place I have no problem with that. If you would read some of their stuff you would soon realize that what is being done is bringing together in one place, what has been said throughout history, church fathers, and customs, cultures. And scripture is always the final authority, Not tradition.

Been there, done that, not impressed.