The Pre-existence of Jesus

[dwight92070]

John 6:50,51,58, - This is the bread which cpmes down out of heaven ... I am the living bread that came down out of heaven ... This is the bread which came down out of heaven ...What then if you see the Son of Man ascending where He was before?

[Paidion]

Yep. That passage makes it pretty clear.

[darinhouston]

Yep. That passage makes it pretty clear.

As to the "bread" it seems pretty clearly to be metaphor to me. Like I was that rock or I am the lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. Whatever you think about pre-existence, certainly no one really believes Jesus was literally slain before the world was formed. This seems to be a common way of talking about things that were destined to happen as if they happened from the beginning (even before Creation).

As to "where he was before" I'll have to consider that further. I don't think his hearers would have had context for pre-existence here, but it is worthy of investigation.

[darinhouston]

This would seem to dovetail with the John 3:13 passage. Can you tell me how you interpret John 3:13 - in particular, how do you deal with the past tenses of both the Son's descending and ascending? I'm not trying to lead you anywhere -- I'm really just trying to understand these passages -- they have always bothered me but don't see to make sense even from a pre-existence perspective (at least 3:13). If it refers to the ascension we're all thinking about, then that hasn't happened yet. He says "no one has except the Son" implying the Son had already done that.

Could it be that he's referring to some sort of raising through his baptism to a new life that no one could accomplish except one who was born of God (himself) without original sin and that after him, as he was the bread of life, others could be raised to newness of life that "eat his flesh" etc. etc.?

[dwight92070]

I haven't given that verse much thought. But my first impression is that Jesus is saying that He has had access to heaven, long before His incarnation. He may have ascended and descended countless times - to do what? We don't know, but He says that no one (on earth) has ascended to heaven, except Him. By "ascended", He must mean something different than the spirits of righteous men going to heaven, when they die.

[Paidion]

"The spirits of righteous men going to heaven, when they die"?

Is that what you believe, Dwight? Well... I understand. I believed that in the early years of my life, too.
Now I don't believe we have "spirits" any more than dogs or horses have "spirits".

My belief now is that when we die, we're dead... and will remain dead ...until we are raised from death in the resurrection.

However, Jesus ascended to Heaven, because God raised Him from the dead. He was the firstfruits of the resurrection.

[dwight92070]

So does this mean that you are a Jehovah's Witness?

[Paidion]

So does this mean that you are a Jehovah's Witness?

Why would it mean that???

By the way, a member of that organization does not like to be called "a Jehovah's Witness" but rather "One of Jehovah's witnesses".
However, I am NOT a member of that organization, and never have been.

[Homer]

Darin wrote:

This would seem to dovetail with the John 3:13 passage. Can you tell me how you interpret John 3:13 - in particular, how do you deal with the past tenses of both the Son's descending and ascending? I'm not trying to lead you anywhere -- I'm really just trying to understand these passages -- they have always bothered me but don't see to make sense even from a pre-existence perspective (at least 3:13). If it refers to the ascension we're all thinking about, then that hasn't happened yet. He says "no one has except the Son" implying the Son had already done that.

Well if you believe in theophanies/Christophanies this passage doesn't present much of a problem.

[dwight92070]

So does this mean that you are a Jehovah's Witness?

Why would it mean that???

By the way, a member of that organization does not like to be called "a Jehovah's Witness" but rather "One of Jehovah's witnesses".
However, I am NOT a member of that organization, and never have been.

Dwight - Well, because they believe something similar - that the dead cease to exist until the resurrection, as I understand it. Paul said, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today, you shall be with me in paradise." Paul said that to depart would be better, because then he would be with Christ. Solomon said that "the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." All of these indicate quite clearly that, right after physical death, our spirit remains alive, (until the resurrection of our bodies, at His 2nd coming).