Deity of Jesus for salvation?

Post by **_Paidion** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:02 pm

Thank you, Christopher, for your explanation of why you believe you are immortal. Your explanation makes sense coming from the foundation of thought that you do. I have recorded your answer, and hope to get a chance to explain my own understanding of these matters.

However, I would like to deal with this one now:

I would say He did guarantee exactly that if we take this verse at face value:

John 11:26
26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
NKJV

Yes, if you take that translation at face value, that is the conclusion to which you would come.

But here is the Greek (in English characters) and its literal rendering. Excuse the dashes. I had to put them in in order to keep the words further apart than a single space:

kai---pas--------ho zōn-----kai---pisteuōn--eis---eme
and--everyone--living------and--trusting---into--me

oumā----apothanā---eis---ton--aiōna
no way--would die--into--the--age

Since I believe that when you're dead, you're dead, I understand that "not dying into the next age" means that you will not stay dead, but will be resurrected at the beginning of the next age when Jesus returns again. (Yes, I am a pre-millenialist, and believe "the age to come" will be the 1000-year millenium).

I do not believe in the immortality of the soul (a Greek philosophical concept). The scriptures affirm "[God]alone has immortality".
But we shall receive immortality when we are resurrected. Paul said in I Corinthians 15, the great resurrection chapter:

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
He doesn't have it yet, but will "put it on" at the time of the resurrection.
Sounds a bit like "being clothed upon with our house from heaven" in
1 Corinthians 5:2, doesn't it?

Post by **_Homer** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:48 pm

Steve,

Your compliment on the spirit of the discussions is appreciated but we really shouldn't be too pleased with ourselves for doing what we ought to do. Not exactly supererogatory behavior for disciples, you know!

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:05 am

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
He doesn't have it yet, but will "put it on" at the time of the resurrection.
Sounds a bit like "being clothed upon with our house from heaven" in
1 Corinthians 5:2, doesn't it

Just my 2 cents. According to Paul's 2 statements in Phil 1 and 2nd Cor 5 it sounds like he did believe that he would be present with the Lord UPON his death. Do we have to be IMMORTAL to be present with the Lord? Does scripture say this? Is this a prerequisite. Was'nt Satan present with the Lord at some point but won't he be destroyed or does he have immortality. Scripture clearly says the corruptable puts on the "incoruptable" at the resurrection , so MUST we have immortality to be in the presence of Christ? This is the question really because there are numerous quotes from the OT that say "the dead know nothing" but did this condition change for the believer after Christ's resurrection?

The SDA's who believe in soul sleep will say that Paul's next conscience moment after death will be to be with Christ and that's what he means. It's possible he means that BUT i think that's reading something extra into the text.

Re the word "aionios" according to "An Analytical Study of Words" by Louis Abbot it means "belonging to the ages" or ages upon ages. It could mean eternity depending on the context or it could mean a long period of time. Just like the word "many" could mean "all" or could mean "a lot" depending on the context. Btw i don't know what the difference between "permanent" and "eternal" would be. And "forever" in scripture does'nt mean eternal , it means for as long as the thing lasts. That's just how it's used if you check it out. If forever meant eternal then the phrase "forever AND EVER" does'nt make sense since you can't add to eternity.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:58 am

One more thought. When Christ returns it sounds like the saints will be with him so they must be alive before the resurrection.
Rev 19.7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give glory to Him , for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."
19.8 " It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen,bright and clean,for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."
Then afterwards we have Christ's second coming with his army.
19.14 "And the armies which are in heaven clothed in WHITE LINEN ,white and clean were following him on white horses."
It sounds like Christ's church will be accompanying Him at his second coming on the last day so they must be in heaven and alive.
Of course if you are a pre-millenianist then you could believe they got up there during the secret rapture 7 years earlier.

Post by **_Paidion** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:15 pm

Btw i don't know what the difference between "permanent" and "eternal" would be.

I have a permanent driver's licence. But it's not an eternal driver's licence. If I don't follow the laws of the road, it could be invalidated.

One more thought. When Christ returns it sounds like the saints will be with him so they must be alive before the resurrection.

I have no doubt that the saints will accompany the Lord when He returns.
But it appears that the resurrection of the righteous will take place before He actually sets foot upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The word translated as "meet" was frequently used in Greek writings in reference to a group of people going out of a city to "meet" their conquering king in order to welcome his return, and to accompany him back into the city.

This may well be the case in the description in I Thessalonians 4. The dead in Christ will have been resurrected and join with the saints on earth who will be "changed in a moment", and together they will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and to welcome their conquering King in His return. Then the Lord together with them shall descend to the earth. Thus the saints will be with the Lord when He reaches the earth. Christ will then judge the earth, and slay His enemies with His word (the "sword" that comes out of His mouth).

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:02 am

I do not believe in the immortality of the soul (a Greek philosophical concept). The scriptures affirm "[God]alone has immortality".
But we shall receive immortality when we are resurrected. Paul said in I Corinthians 15, the great resurrection chapter:

Do the spirits of believers being in heaven mean they have to be immortal at least before the resurrection?
"To the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven and to God ,the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect." Hebrews 12.23

Here the author of Hebrews refers to the spirits of the righteous MADE perfect which seems to me can not be an activity that's possible if believers are simply sleeping in the ground. To be made perfect means the spirits have conscienceness and understanding and i don't see how this could be a symbolic statement.

Post by **_Peter** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:13 pm

Hi Christopher,

I want to respond to your last response to me on "Deity of Jesus".

If you're able to give the true answer to the mysterious nature of the Godhead, I think you may be the first in history to do so. It's not entirely clear to me.

That is exactly the point! The Trinity is not explicitly laid out in scripture. That is exactly why it is so wrong to use this doctrine as the litmus test for whether or not somebody is a true Christian. Yet, over and over again, Christian organizations do exactly that. Usually, the determination of whether or not a particular group is a "cult" starts and ends with whether or not they accept the Trinity. To me that seems misguided.

A better measure of whether any group is a cult is whether or not they want to add or subtract anything to or from God's Word. "I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." Rev. 22:18-19. The statement specifically refers to the book of Revelation, but similar sentiments can be found in Deut. 4:2 and Prov. 30:5-6. Please don't misunderstand me; we are not saved by words, only by the blood of Jesus shed for our sins. I am merely trying to get to a more scriptural determination of whether or not a person or group is "from God." This also not to say that there are not true Christians in any particular misguided group. "The Lord knows those who are His."

John 8:58-59
"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
NKJV

I don't see how anyone can miss the clear allusion to Exodus 3:

Ex 3:14
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.' "
NKJV

The Jews didn't miss it, they almost stoned him for it.

Jesus is clearly claiming pre-existence, which would certainly meet the threshold for blasphemy and therefore stoning. It may be stretching a point to say that he is claiming to be the "I AM" of Exodus. I have checked several translations, and so far, only the NKJV capitalizes the "am" in John. To capitalize would be an indication that he was referring to the "I AM" title of God in Exodus. Because it is not capitalized, most translators seem to be implying that he was not referring to the Old Testament title of God. Not being a Greek scholar, I am left to defer to the translators.

God Bless,

Peter

Post by **_Christopher** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:46 pm

Hi Peter,

That is exactly the point! The Trinity is not explicitly laid out in scripture. That is exactly why it is so wrong to use this doctrine as the litmus test for whether or not somebody is a true Christian. Yet, over and over again, Christian organizations do exactly that. Usually, the determination of whether or not a particular group is a "cult" starts and ends with whether or not they accept the Trinity. To me that seems misguided.

I agree. I myself do not use this as a litmus test which is why I can consider you a brother....brother.

But if you remember, my original disagreement came from this statement on your first post:

This however is far different from the meaning that most Evangelicals ascribe to the phrase "Fully God and fully man." I clench my teeth when I sit in church and hear that God died on the cross. When I read the word GOD in Scripture, my assumption is that it is talking about The Father. I think that this is mostly a good assumption. In 1Cor. 8:6, Paul says, "but for us, there is one God, The Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we exist." (God the Father= the source of creation, Jesus Christ= the instrument of creation) All of Paul's letters begin with some version of the salutation, "Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. It seems to me that the early Christians, certainly the apostle Paul, saw Jesus Christ and God the Father as two very separate and distinct beings. Modern day Trinitarians have blended and blurred the two persons to an extent that I don't see in scripture.

That seemed, in my mind, to be the very same type of cavalier dismissal of the trinitarian view that you seem to be very frustrated with when it comes from most trinitarians. If that was not your intention, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

The nature of the Godhead is mysterious enough to allow for many theories on it, including yours and mine. However, I don't see Jesus, Paul, or any other scripture suggesting that the understanding of it is required to be in right relationship to God.

Lord bless.

Post by **_Peter** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:56 pm

Thanks for the reply Christopher,

That seemed, in my mind, to be the very same type of cavalier dismissal of the trinitarian view that you seem to be very frustrated with when it comes from most trinitarians. If that was not your intention, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

I assure you that no cavalier dismissal was intended. I felt like I was making a defense of my position from scripture. I have looked at this issue from every angle for the better part of 30 years. I can fully accept true blue Trinitarians as my brothers and sisters in Christ. I gratefully appreciate the same courtesy extended to me by you and others on this forum. May God enlighten all of us as we seek to know him more.

Blessings to you,

Peter

Post by **_Roger** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:37 am

I have not been involved in this discussion but have quickly glanced over it this morning. I was just wondering if any of you have considered this wonderful verse:

Hebrews 1:8 "But to the Son He says: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever..."

I didn't see it posted in the discussion at all but I may have missed it. I shared this verse once with some JW's who stopped at my house with the intention of converting me and they left bewildered by this verse.