Inter-generational Visiting of Rewards/Punishments

[CThomas]

I've been a bit puzzled about the passages saying that one's sins can be visited to the third or fourth generations and the one (Deuteronomy 7:9) saying that the benefits of the faithful are similarly carried down across many generations. I'm not asking the usual question about how these can be reconciled with the passages saying that people are not judged by the conduct of their fathers. I understand that these are consistent essentially because the former passages are talking about things like the temporal consequences of behavior rather than moral culpability for behavior. But here's the question that puzzles me.

Call a person 1. 1's son is named 2. 2's son (1's grandson) is 3. Suppose that 1 commits sin triggering the generational consequences of visiting the misconduct three to four generations down. Then suppose that 2 leads a holy life triggering Deuteronomy 7:9. Where does that leave 3? It seems like 3 would have different and conflicting inter-generational consequences. It seems like this sort of thing must come up an awful lot. How does this possibility of conflicting cross-generational consequences play out?

CThomas

[mattrose]

Interesting question...

I think if we view those Scriptures more as relational than mechanical... and keep in mind the character of God... we would likely conclude that a life of holiness trumps the past. Love covers a multitude of sins.

[CThomas]

Thanks, Matt. It occurs to me that one other possibility is that if you do look at it more in a mechanical way, they could partially or wholly offset each other. If you imagine a single quantitative measure for purposes of illustration, if the cross-generational effect of 1's misconduct is a -3, and the cross-generational effect of 2's holiness is a +5, then one could imagine 3 ending up with a net +2.

CThomas

[robbyyoung]

CThomas,

3rd & 4th generation is an allegory for:

3 (three) = perfect completeness
4 (four) = God's creative work

See the comparison:

A. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

B. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto perfect completion by My work of them that hate me;

Numbers had covenantal meaning to the Hebrews. Most non-Jews miss this most important fact when trying to make sense of their metaphors, idioms, and the like.

God Bless!

[CThomas]

Thanks, Robby, but even accepting your interpretation of the text, your reading would make the problem far more problematic, not less. Now instead of having potential conflicts for four generations following the commission of the sin, you have a far longer chain of fathers and sons subject to being affected by the visitation of the iniquity, and hence a much larger incidence of cross-generational conflicts.

[robbyyoung]

CThomas,

The point God is making with the Jews is that this judgement will be ongoing as long as the covenant stands for them. This judgement of God will be divinely completed on all those who hate him, in this case, idolatry. His visitation will be upon each individual in succession who violates the covenant. The numbers 3 & 4 is shorthand for the details.

[CThomas]

Thanks, Robby. It seems to me that if this is your reading, it requires much more than an allegorization of the numbers 3 and 4, though. It seems to require abandonment of most of the literal meaning of the text of the passages, since you don't read the passage as indicating a visitation of the sins of fathers on children at all, but rather only a visitation on "each individual . . . who violates the covenant." I appreciate your point, but I'm not quite sure I could personally accept that as the best reading of the text, at least without some significant elaboration on the Hebrew language form of it.

CThomas

[robbyyoung]

CThomas,

I really am enjoying the conversation, so thank you for your patience. Ok, fair enough; let me clarify my position. First, when the Hebrews heard the words "fathers" and "children" in this context, what would have been there understanding? The list below gives us the many meaning of the Hebrew words above.

FATHER:
1. father of an individual
2. of God as father of his people
3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
4. ancestor
a. grandfather, forefathers — of person
b. of people
5. originator or patron of a class, profession, or art
6. of producer, generator (fig.)
7. of benevolence and protection (fig.)
8. term of respect and honour
9. ruler or chief (spec.)

CHILDREN:
1. son, grandson, child, member of a group
2. son, male child
3. grandson
4. children (pl. - male and female)
5. youth, young men (pl.)
6. young (of animals) sons (as characterisation, i.e. sons of injustice [for un- righteous men] or sons of God [for angels] people (of a nation) (pl.)
7. of lifeless things, i.e. sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
8. a member of a guild, order, class

Now let's get a Hebrew to tell us how to understand and interpret the language; Matthew 23:29-36

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

As you can see, the scribes and the Pharisees were children separated by hundreds of years from their fathers. This is well beyond a literal reading of western thought processes of 3 to 4 generations. This is prophetic language concerning covenantal judgement on the house of Israel. Spiritual Rulers and Kings are the guilty fathers and their subsequent offspring are partakers of the same. IMO mathematics is not the focus, it's about promising the Israelites of a for sure prophetic judgement against them for breaking their covenant relationship with God.

Notice there are no more generations for judgement to fall on. This is the last Hebrew generation that will ever exist to fill up all the blood guilt of the entire Old Covenant. My "individual" remarks were clearly inappropriate. What's more accurate is each father(ruler/leader of the house of Israel) guilty of breaking covenant, children (subsequent rulers/leaders) will follow the same iniquities to their own judgement until God complete his work of judgement on the house of Israel.

I'm exhausted now brother

Pray for me and God Bless!

[CThomas]

Thanks, Robby. That does help me to understand your view better. I appreciate your taking the time to elaborate, and I will certainly give it some thought.

CThomas

[Tres]

One thought along this line is that of the differences of the two covenants. In the old, the unclean is that which defiled and under the new we see a different dynamic at work which is much the opposite, especially as we see illustrated in the person of Jesus. Often we see generational sins, where the bad habits have not only negative consequences including but not limited to economic, social, behavioral and etc., but we also see direct influences e.g. racism. Here we also have to acknowledge the spiritual laws that govern and are not so easily seen. I don't know if this applies or not but I have seen where adopted children do not have the same spiritual tenderness as the natural children, this is purely anecdotal but has made me wonder about this very kind of question. Also we sometimes see Christians that are so messed up and full of baggage. This is usually a product of sin and often that of a dysfunctional upbringing and or rebellion. The Christian children of these Christians can be the generation that brings their children up well in the nurture and admonition of the Lord however only if their parents were broken early enough to make real changes in their lives before it was too late for their children to be influenced in life changing ways. One question left here that would be helpful if answered, Are demons passed along generationally?