What is the preterist view of the Torah? (Law)

[Guest]

Is the Law passed away and we only live in grace? Or is grace part of Law? If it is not passed away, then why are Christians not doing the whole
law but only what they choose? If it is passed away how do you explain the New Covenant made only with the houses of Judah and Israel?

Jeremiah31:
31. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35. Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37. Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

[Guest]

Christ gave the command to love as the command that sums up the "heart" of the law. John 15:12-17 & Matthew 22:36-40

Paul put it this way:
Romans 13:8-10;
Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

[Guest]

It is interesting to note that LOVE according to Yahweh is to obey and keep His commandments which is the Law.

Exodus 20:6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

John 14:15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17. Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

According to John 14:15-17, the Holy Spirit comes when one keeps the commandments which is the Law and is what love is to God.

There is no room for cultural interpretation. The Law is very specific on how to love Yahweh and each other.

The word love by its self cannot be used ouside of this context as what is love for one culture may not be love to the next one. With the Law of Yahweh, there is definition and clarity.

Yahshua repeats loving Him as keeping His Words which the Law and commandments is a central part of. Fulfillment does not mean expiration but maturity. Yahshua truly fullfills the Law that WE MAY DO IT. Not by our own power but by His. This is grace. This is the reason why the Holy Spirit was promised and sent, that we may have power to DO HIS commandments and Torah.

John 14:
21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Loving Yahweh is the S'hma or the Call.

Derech

[Guest]

The word "preterist" doesn't properly apply to one's approach to the law, but to specific prophetic predictions. If a person believes that a particular prediction was fulfilled in the past, he is looking at that particular prophecy in a "preterist" manner. If he does not see a particular prediction as fulfilled in the past, but anticipates a future fulfillment, then he is a "futurist" concerning that particular prediction.

As for the relationship of the law to the Christian duty of loving God and loving our neighbor, I think the simplest way of understanding this is to say that any of the laws that could not be ignored without violating the love mandate given by Christ (John 13:34-35) are clearly required to be observed by all believers, in every age.

This would include all of those commandments that are sometimes popularly (but not in scripture) referred to as "moral" laws. A behavior is either moral or not, insofar as it lines up or does not line up with the requirement to love God and our neighbor (Mark 12:29-31/ Rom.13:8-10).

Laws that merely describe ritual or ceremonial practices pertinent to a certain time and place (like the regulations associated with animal sacrifices, which have no validity after the cross of Christ) are not intrinsically related to what love always requires, but they serve, for a particular time, the purpose of symbolizing and foreshadowing eternal realities that are more important than themselves.

This is, no doubt, the reason that we find Jesus only commanding His disciples concerning the continuance of what we might call "moral" laws from the Old Testament, and He significantly never sites a "ceremonial" law as embodying a continuing duty of His disciples.

The obligation to love is, therefore, certainly defined and described in the specific divine laws given to us, but not necessarily by all of those found in the Old Testament, since many of those are specific to the performance of rituals associated with the now-defunct tabernacle/temple system.

Our obligation is to keep "the royal law" (James 2:8), which is "the law of Christ" (Gal.6:2/ 1 Cor.9:21/ Mark 9:7/ John 8:31/ Matt.28:20/ Luke 6:46; etc.). This is not so much a "preterist" approach to the law, since one's being a preterist about prophecy does not dictate any particular solution to the Law/Gospel controversy. Nor is this the only view of the relation of the Law and the Gospel--it is just the simplest and the one most supported (to my mind) by the teaching of Christ and the apostles.

[Guest]

Derech,
Are we justified by works?

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The law pointed not to our ability to justify ourselves, but to the one who could keep it without sin, to Jesus. The Law is the schoolmaster that leads us to Christ. The law shuts our mouths by condemning us in the sight of God. (Romans 2-3)

Read John carefully;
John 15:9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

11 "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

So who's commandments do we keep? Moses commanded Jews to keep the Torah. Jesus said if you keep my commandments then...
What is it that Jesus said His commandments are? 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

As Paul summed up, Love fulfills the law. Not the other way around.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace

[Guest]

I myself can't think of any better way to reply to the question about a "preterist" view of the law than Steve did. However, I can give a very interesting perspective of the law by looking at the beginning of human history.

When Adam and Eve sinned, "law" was not the immediate solution to the problem at hand. However, the problem did bear some major similarities to that of the Israelites coming out of Egypt. Let's take a look at them:

1. Adam and Eve were created as emotional newborns, as it were. Israel coming out of Egypt was "born" as a nation when they passed through the Red Sea. (1 Cor. 10:1-2 describes it as baptism, but what is baptism but "birth" symbolism?)

2. When Adam and Eve were called to account for their sin, they pointed the finger of blame at someone else. They acted immature, in other words. When the Israelites left Egypt, they pointed the finger of blame at Moses.

3. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were cast out of God's presence. Nevertheless, they still had access to God via animal sacrifices at an altar at the entrance to the Garden of Eden. When the Israelites rebelled, God condemned them to wander in the wilderness for 40 years before they could enter the Promised Land - which is a type of Eden. Nevertheless, they still had access to God via animal sacrifices at the tabernacle.

4. Why is it that Adam and Eve sinned? IT WAS BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T TRUST THAT THEIR NEEDS WOULD BE MET. Why is it that the Israelites continued to sin in the wilderness? For the exact same reason.

What can we see from all of this? That the point and purpose of the Mosaic Law was to bring the Israelites to maturity, so that they could love and trust God in a proper way, whether circumstances were easy - such as in the Garden of Eden where every need was provided for - or difficult, such as when the Israelites were in slavery in Egypt.

When the earth rose out of the water in Genesis 1:10, it symbolized the "birth" of the world. But moreover, it represented the principle of "something created from nothing." Adam himself was created from "the dust" which in the Hebrew can be an idiom for "nothing." When the Israelites left Egypt, they had endured the worst possible 'disaster circumstances'. And yet, they were being called to set their sights on the highest level of maturity. Again, something from nothing.

We read in Psalm 113:7-8 that God raises the poor (like the Israelites) "out of the dust" - from nothingness, as it were - for the purpose of setting them "with princes" - that is, with the highest social level. Again, the principle of "something from nothing."

The Law could only bring the Israelites so far. It could only discipline them where they erred, but it could not instill love and trust in them. That's why the Mosaic Law wasn't given to Adam and Eve. It was only a "schoolmaster" designed to bring the Israelites to the point of being able to love and trust...but they had to choose to love and trust on their own, separate from the Law.

I hope that makes sense.

Damon

[Guest]

It is very refreshing to see different views on what the Law is to us today. Thanks for all your replies.

A lot of the writings of Paul seem to to indicate that the Law is of no consequence to a believer's life.Yet we find Paul (Shaul) still doing the Law. Can anyone explain to me why Paul was still doing Law when he wrote NOT to do Law anymore?

1) Paul still did Sabbath the same way Jesus (Yahshua) did:

Acts 17:2. And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

2) Paul did the baptisms and nazarene rites related to the Feast of Yom Kippur:

Acts 21:
23. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24. Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law...
... 26. Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

3) Paul deemed the Feast of Pentecost so important that he left the Ephesians to attend Pentecost. (By the way, you cannot celebrate Pentecost without celebrating First Fruits. You cannot celebrate Passover nor any of the Feats without celebrating Sabbath)

Acts 20:
16. For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

4) Paul celebrated Passover seder (not communion), as Yahshua did, with the Corinthians who were not Jews but converts.

1 Corinthians 11: 25. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

5) Paul with the Colossians and Thessalonians did celebrate the Feasts of Yahweh.

1 Thessalonians 5
1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(Times and seasons is also another way of saying the Feasts of Yahweh which is prophetic in nature and not just rituals. Just like Passover was to the crucifixion. The blood of Yahshua would have no validity if it was not for the Law of Yom Kippur (Day of Covering/Atonement).

It seems that Paul taught about the prophetic aspect of the Law in the system of the Feasts that the Thessalonians were knowledgeable of.

Colossians 2:
16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Colossians could not be judged if they were NOT doing the Law specifically the Feasts of Yahweh. Remember, they were Gentiles before who never did the Law. Now, are encouraged not to mind judgement when they celebrate the Feasts of Yahweh.


Shalom Alechem (Peace be to you)

[Guest]

Hi Derech.

While there's validity in everything you've posted, why do you think James made the comment in Acts 15:19-20? How does that square with what you quoted Paul as saying in Acts 21:23-26?

These festivals are symbolic, and are designed to help us to understand God's Plan. Certainly, some Gentiles wanted to take part in these things for that very purpose! But we are not to judge or devalue anyone who honors God, whether they regard or do not regard a certain festival day, as Romans 14 says.

Right?

By the way, you might want to take a look at the following two posts for more on what I've written about the Law: #1 #2


Damon

[Guest]

Acts 15:19. "Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God,
20. "but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.
21. "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.''

Dear Damon,

The reason why James made the statement from verse 19 to 20 is answered in verse 21.

The Gentiles turning to Yahweh GO TO THE synagogues on SABBATH where Moses (referring to the Law) has been preached also to them.

(Note this shows these Gentiles celebrated Sabbath just like Yahshua did)

The controversy among the Council in Jerusalem is about circumcision as a prerequisite for salvation.
Not about the the whole Law. This is shown in the topic sentence:

Acts 15
1. And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.''

We know that this is Pharisee theology (human law) not in the Torah. Flesh circumcision does not save anyone. The circumsicion of Abraham was a TOKEN of what had already taken place in the Spirit: the circumcision of the heart.

(By the way, the Torah cannot save anyone. We cannot save ourselves.
Nor can faith by itself. It has to be faith in Yahweh. It is only Yahweh who can save us by the kipporet (Atonement) of His son,Yahshua and His Ruach (Spirit) who gives us the power to do the WHOLE Torah.)

Yakov (James) really just re-quoted the Torah on what they expect from the Gentiles turning to Yahweh.
"but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood.

These are found in:

Ezekiel 14: 6. "Therefore say to the house of Israel, `Thus says the Lord God: "Repent, turn away from your idols, and turn your faces away from all your abominations. 7. "For anyone of the house of Israel, or of the strangers (Gentiles) who sojourn in Israel, who separates himself from Me and sets up his idols in his heart and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, then comes to a prophet to inquire of him concerning Me, I the Lord will answer him by Myself.

Leviticus 17:10. `And whatever man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eats any blood, I will set My face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

Leviticus 18:
7. `The nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness.
...26. `You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who sojourns among you
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So if Gentiles who turned to Yahweh were doing the Torah, why have the Christians abandoned this lead? And also Paul if truly ceremonial laws are
expired, why was he still doing them and teaching the Gentiles to do so too?

I am sure there is no problem today to say that sexual immorality is wrong. But how about the eating of blood? There is a snag. Or any of the Feasts of Yahweh?

Do we pick and choose from the Law of God what we want? Sabbath is the way Yahshua did it; not the way the Catholic imposed it? Or do you do Sabbath at all? The 7th Day the way God said so or any day of YOUR choosing?

I believe what men classify as ceremonial laws are actually the blueprint and calendar of the WAY and Times of Yahweh.

Did not Yahshua fulfilled Passover exactly on Passover even to the
slaugther of the lambs? He truly RESTED on Sabbath after he said "It is finish" just as His Father rested when He FINISHED creation on the 7th day?

Then did not Yahshua said, "Take up your cross and Follow me"?

Do as He did.

Why are we not following Yahshua? Is it ignorance of Torah?

Remember Torah was also commanded by Yahshua. He wrote it not Moses. He was the one who commanded to do ALL of the Torah, not Moses.

Let me reiterate that Yahweh is the one who empowers us to do ALL Torah. Why? Because if you or I default on ANY Commandment, we SIN.

Hence, Romans 2:13. (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the DOERS of the law will be justified;

Law and Faith are not in opposition. They are complimentary.
One of the definition of Sin is LAWLESSNESS or the absence of Torah.


Of course, I am not an expert in Torah, but these things do make me think.

Derech

[Guest]

Derech,
I'm just wondering what you do with the entire epistle to the Galatians? And Philippians 3:1-11?