It seems clear to me that the great polarization between Calvanists and Arminianists is largely due on most part to a lack of both sides coming to a proper understanding of the whole council of God. I have reached this conclusion based on the indesputabe,irrrefutable premiss that both free will and Gods soviergnty are both taught in Scripture. Both views in thier extremes are clearly views that are wrong and are not supported in the Bible . To reconcile completely, these two views as revealed in Scripture, to the complete satisfaction of either side is impossible this side of heaven. They are both truths that run parallel to each other yet both are true. To choose to place one over the other as Gods idea of truth seems more an effort of human will rather than Divine inspiration. I find the basis for this primarily the fact that the Bible was written by God and men in thier present condition cant completely understand His revelation of Scripture. We are called to walk by faith and if both views are taught in the Bible we should accept that in faith.Does that mean that ultra extremists on both sides should move more towards the middle and allow more grace into thier theology on these issues in light of both being in Scripture? Possibly this is a logical path? Clearly division of the Body of Christ over such things doesnt seem what God would want.
Lord Bless You
Steve
Further information is here
http://www.calvarychapel.com/library/ta ... xt/cva.htm
Two sides of the same coin
Two sides of the same coin
Last edited by Jill on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Two sides of the same coin; some questions
I do not understand the problem of reconciling God's sovereignty with the free-will of man. It seems to me that God's sovereignty means He is possessed of supreme power, unlimited in any way. It is within His power to allow us to choose whether to accept Jesus as Lord and savior. If He can not do this, then he is not sovereign.
The problem, to my mind, is not an imagined conflict between His sovereignty and our free-will, but what kind of God do we think He is?
Why would he hold us responsible for a choice we could not make? Did he just bring some (most?) into this world as "fuel for hell" as the ancient Jews are reported to have believed of the gentiles?
The problem, to my mind, is not an imagined conflict between His sovereignty and our free-will, but what kind of God do we think He is?
Why would he hold us responsible for a choice we could not make? Did he just bring some (most?) into this world as "fuel for hell" as the ancient Jews are reported to have believed of the gentiles?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Heres a pair you can try to reconcile.
For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves. Ephesians 1: 4-6
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22 :17
Clearly it says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. It couldnt be any more emphatic.Its written in stone. Yet its also true that whosoever will may come. Thats also written in stone. The two views cannot be reconciled in our understanding yet both are true.We must accept them both if we are to accept Gods Word as completely true.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22 :17
Clearly it says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. It couldnt be any more emphatic.Its written in stone. Yet its also true that whosoever will may come. Thats also written in stone. The two views cannot be reconciled in our understanding yet both are true.We must accept them both if we are to accept Gods Word as completely true.
Last edited by Jill on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hi Steve,
The view that God's sovereignty and human free will cannot be reconciled logically, and must be relegated to the realm of "mystery" is the view that I was taught, and which I myself taught, for some time, while I was in Calvary Chapel. It is, in fact, the Calvary Chapel position, as the link you posted demonstrates.
I no longer see any reason to resort to this expedient. It essentially is saying, "Yes, you believe because it was determined by God before you were born that you would believe, and it could not have turned out otherwise. On the other hand, you have the choice to go either way."
Seen this way, the two positions are indeed either mysterious, or else just nonsense. That free will is taught and demonstrated throughout the Bible seems impossible for Calvary Chapel people to deny, yet they are trapped by their default acceptance of the Calvinist definitions of words like "sovereignty" and "elect."
They think (as Calviniosts do) that a "sovereign" person must have made all the decisions about everything, or else he is not "sovereign." But the concept of meticulous providence is not taught in scripture, nor is there anything in the word "sovereign" that suggests this. If the Calvinst definition of "sovereign" is applied to God, then He must be directly controling every detail of history, including people's decisions to believe in Christ or not to.
But "sovereign" simply means "possessing all authority," and "answerable to none in making decisions." This we can apply to God without guessing about which decisions He chooses to make and which ones He leaves to others. The Bible teaches that the decision of the individual about believing and repenting is left to the individual, not God (Ezek.33:11/2 Pet.3:9). When a person chooses to believe, he/she chooses what God would like for them to have chosen, and it can thus be said that their choice was in accordance with God's will. But if he/she should choose not to believe, then that choice is contrary to God's will, and His will in their case was not done (Luke 7:30).
When we quote verses about election, if we wish to show that the election was "unconditional," then we must find that element in the statement we are quoting. There is no such qualification in Ephesians, or in any passage about election for salvation. If the passage does not tell us that the choosing was unconditional, then we have every reason to believe that the conditions for salvation (repentance and faith) that are elsewhere defined in scripture, must be the conditions for the choosing. It makes perfectly good sense, without appealing to either mystery or to nonsense. Calvinists would say that this is resorting to "carnal" reasoning, but it is, in fact, simply reasoning from scripture, just as we do in determining the biblical teaching on any subject—which is divine, not carnal.
Blessings!
The view that God's sovereignty and human free will cannot be reconciled logically, and must be relegated to the realm of "mystery" is the view that I was taught, and which I myself taught, for some time, while I was in Calvary Chapel. It is, in fact, the Calvary Chapel position, as the link you posted demonstrates.
I no longer see any reason to resort to this expedient. It essentially is saying, "Yes, you believe because it was determined by God before you were born that you would believe, and it could not have turned out otherwise. On the other hand, you have the choice to go either way."
Seen this way, the two positions are indeed either mysterious, or else just nonsense. That free will is taught and demonstrated throughout the Bible seems impossible for Calvary Chapel people to deny, yet they are trapped by their default acceptance of the Calvinist definitions of words like "sovereignty" and "elect."
They think (as Calviniosts do) that a "sovereign" person must have made all the decisions about everything, or else he is not "sovereign." But the concept of meticulous providence is not taught in scripture, nor is there anything in the word "sovereign" that suggests this. If the Calvinst definition of "sovereign" is applied to God, then He must be directly controling every detail of history, including people's decisions to believe in Christ or not to.
But "sovereign" simply means "possessing all authority," and "answerable to none in making decisions." This we can apply to God without guessing about which decisions He chooses to make and which ones He leaves to others. The Bible teaches that the decision of the individual about believing and repenting is left to the individual, not God (Ezek.33:11/2 Pet.3:9). When a person chooses to believe, he/she chooses what God would like for them to have chosen, and it can thus be said that their choice was in accordance with God's will. But if he/she should choose not to believe, then that choice is contrary to God's will, and His will in their case was not done (Luke 7:30).
When we quote verses about election, if we wish to show that the election was "unconditional," then we must find that element in the statement we are quoting. There is no such qualification in Ephesians, or in any passage about election for salvation. If the passage does not tell us that the choosing was unconditional, then we have every reason to believe that the conditions for salvation (repentance and faith) that are elsewhere defined in scripture, must be the conditions for the choosing. It makes perfectly good sense, without appealing to either mystery or to nonsense. Calvinists would say that this is resorting to "carnal" reasoning, but it is, in fact, simply reasoning from scripture, just as we do in determining the biblical teaching on any subject—which is divine, not carnal.
Blessings!
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Hi Steve
Hi Steve
Lets consider the passage itself.
For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves. Ephesians 1: 4-6
Although I believe both Free will and Gods Soviergnty are true I will here speak to illustrate the strength of the Calvanist point.
Steve wrote
[ I no longer see any reason to resort to this expedient. It essentially is saying, "Yes, you believe because it was determined by God before you were born that you would believe, and it could not have turned out otherwise. On the other hand, you have the choice to go either way." ]
Lets let the Word speak for itself and see what it clearly says. It plainly says we were chosen in Him.It doesnt refer to belief. It says He chose us in Him before the world was created.Nowhere does it establish the thought or intention that belief was what came first or even related to this portion of Scripture. Nor does it say because we would believe in the future that would somehow fulfill all the implications expressed in that phrase "HE CHOSE US". After all how could we have believed, for we nor the earth was created at this time.Clearly His choosing preceeds anything related to this passage as far as believing is concerned. It even goes on to say He predestined our adoption.These are very powerful words and if taken literally at face value very easily illustrate and demonstrate the inescapeable fact that God chose us In Him before the foundation of the world. If the word "chose" were not used in in relationship with
" before the foundation of the world " there would be plausible reason to deduce some of your conclusions.
Also to argue that because unconditional is not mentioned ,we can therefore assume there are some conditions is an arguement from silence and presupposes there are some when clearly it isnt indicated. We must not read into the text clearly what isnt there.
Actually the triune God is revealed here for in Chapter 1: 1-6 we see we are chosen by God...verses 7-12 we are Redeemed by the Son and 13-14 we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
There is no other authority higher than Jesus Christ and what did He say about choice in the Gospel of John. We there read these potent words.
John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.”
Respectfully in Jesus
Steve
Lets consider the passage itself.
For He chose us in Him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves. Ephesians 1: 4-6
Although I believe both Free will and Gods Soviergnty are true I will here speak to illustrate the strength of the Calvanist point.
Steve wrote
[ I no longer see any reason to resort to this expedient. It essentially is saying, "Yes, you believe because it was determined by God before you were born that you would believe, and it could not have turned out otherwise. On the other hand, you have the choice to go either way." ]
Lets let the Word speak for itself and see what it clearly says. It plainly says we were chosen in Him.It doesnt refer to belief. It says He chose us in Him before the world was created.Nowhere does it establish the thought or intention that belief was what came first or even related to this portion of Scripture. Nor does it say because we would believe in the future that would somehow fulfill all the implications expressed in that phrase "HE CHOSE US". After all how could we have believed, for we nor the earth was created at this time.Clearly His choosing preceeds anything related to this passage as far as believing is concerned. It even goes on to say He predestined our adoption.These are very powerful words and if taken literally at face value very easily illustrate and demonstrate the inescapeable fact that God chose us In Him before the foundation of the world. If the word "chose" were not used in in relationship with
" before the foundation of the world " there would be plausible reason to deduce some of your conclusions.
Also to argue that because unconditional is not mentioned ,we can therefore assume there are some conditions is an arguement from silence and presupposes there are some when clearly it isnt indicated. We must not read into the text clearly what isnt there.
Actually the triune God is revealed here for in Chapter 1: 1-6 we see we are chosen by God...verses 7-12 we are Redeemed by the Son and 13-14 we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.
There is no other authority higher than Jesus Christ and what did He say about choice in the Gospel of John. We there read these potent words.
John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.”
Respectfully in Jesus
Steve
Last edited by Jill on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
You ask how we could believe before the foundation of the world, I would ask how we could be in Him before the foundation of the world. Seems to me we are spoken of as being in Him by anticipation, a not uncommon way of speaking in the bible in regard to eternal life, for example.
We commonly speak of children of the rich as "rich kids" when they in reality own nothing. The are rich by anticipation.
If what Calvinism teaches about election is true I can not understand how it would apply in my own case, or anyone who has been, as I once was, clearly not in Christ. If I was literally in Christ before the foundation of the world, did I fall out then get back in again? Are the elect continually in Christ? If not, then what does it matter if we were in before the world began?
In regard to your assertion that there can be no conditions since they are not mentioned in the cited passage, what about the numerous other passages where conditions are clearly and emphatically stated? Shouldn"t we take the whole council of God regarding a particular subject?
A good example of this is Romans 10:9 where we see we are saved by confession and faith but if we read further we find in 10:13 we are saved by calling on His name, an action.
We commonly speak of children of the rich as "rich kids" when they in reality own nothing. The are rich by anticipation.
If what Calvinism teaches about election is true I can not understand how it would apply in my own case, or anyone who has been, as I once was, clearly not in Christ. If I was literally in Christ before the foundation of the world, did I fall out then get back in again? Are the elect continually in Christ? If not, then what does it matter if we were in before the world began?
In regard to your assertion that there can be no conditions since they are not mentioned in the cited passage, what about the numerous other passages where conditions are clearly and emphatically stated? Shouldn"t we take the whole council of God regarding a particular subject?
A good example of this is Romans 10:9 where we see we are saved by confession and faith but if we read further we find in 10:13 we are saved by calling on His name, an action.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Hi Homer
Homer posted
[You ask how we could believe before the foundation of the world, I would ask how we could be in Him before the foundation of the world. Seems to me we are spoken of as being in Him by anticipation, a not uncommon way of speaking in the bible in regard to eternal life, for example. ]
Crusader replied
Well clearly the Scripture says " He ( God ) chose us ( the saved) in Him (Jesus) before the foundation of the world". Its really pretty plain and simple. God really never asks us to understand, as much as He asks us to accept it as His word, and as such to believe it. I cant see anyway around the language here.
Homer posted
[We commonly speak of children of the rich as "rich kids" when they in reality own nothing. The are rich by anticipation. ]
Crusader replied
This is a human analogy applied to a divine truth and looses its value as an illustration in light of Gods revealed Word.
Homer posted
[If what Calvinism teaches about election is true I can not understand how it would apply in my own case, or anyone who has been, as I once was, clearly not in Christ. If I was literally in Christ before the foundation of the world, did I fall out then get back in again? Are the elect continually in Christ? If not, then what does it matter if we were in before the world began? ]
Crusader replied
Well here again when we look at the Scripture it simply says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. It doesnt say you were in Christ before the foundation of the world it says you were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Clearly the words " He chose" are worthy of our utmost consideration and attention here.
Homer posted
[In regard to your assertion that there can be no conditions since they are not mentioned in the cited passage, what about the numerous other passages where conditions are clearly and emphatically stated? Shouldn"t we take the whole council of God regarding a particular subject?]
Crusader replied
Once again we have to let the Scripture speak for itself here. This passage doesnt attempt to negate mans free will. Nor does God revoke His sovierngty in these matters when He speaks of mans free will. When it says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world thats what it means.If you try to reason that somehow, because God knew those that would respond to the Gospel , that somehow this represents His choice, then its clearly no choice by Him at all,its ours. Its His choice we see demonstrated here in this passage.
Homer posted
[A good example of this is Romans 10:9 where we see we are saved by confession and faith but if we read further we find in 10:13 we are saved by calling on His name, an action.]
Crusader replied
Amen I believe it too!!!! Your just looking at the opposite side of the same coin.
Lets read what Jesus said.
John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.”
Lord Bless
Steve
P.S. Keep in mind that Im not denying free will and whosever will may come..My only reason for pursueing this extreme is to illustrate that both views are taught in the Bible. Man has been debating this issue for 400 years or more and no answer has ever ended the issue. The reason is they are both found in the Bible. Its man who cant understand how to reconcile them and probably never will this side of Heaven.
[You ask how we could believe before the foundation of the world, I would ask how we could be in Him before the foundation of the world. Seems to me we are spoken of as being in Him by anticipation, a not uncommon way of speaking in the bible in regard to eternal life, for example. ]
Crusader replied
Well clearly the Scripture says " He ( God ) chose us ( the saved) in Him (Jesus) before the foundation of the world". Its really pretty plain and simple. God really never asks us to understand, as much as He asks us to accept it as His word, and as such to believe it. I cant see anyway around the language here.
Homer posted
[We commonly speak of children of the rich as "rich kids" when they in reality own nothing. The are rich by anticipation. ]
Crusader replied
This is a human analogy applied to a divine truth and looses its value as an illustration in light of Gods revealed Word.
Homer posted
[If what Calvinism teaches about election is true I can not understand how it would apply in my own case, or anyone who has been, as I once was, clearly not in Christ. If I was literally in Christ before the foundation of the world, did I fall out then get back in again? Are the elect continually in Christ? If not, then what does it matter if we were in before the world began? ]
Crusader replied
Well here again when we look at the Scripture it simply says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. It doesnt say you were in Christ before the foundation of the world it says you were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Clearly the words " He chose" are worthy of our utmost consideration and attention here.
Homer posted
[In regard to your assertion that there can be no conditions since they are not mentioned in the cited passage, what about the numerous other passages where conditions are clearly and emphatically stated? Shouldn"t we take the whole council of God regarding a particular subject?]
Crusader replied
Once again we have to let the Scripture speak for itself here. This passage doesnt attempt to negate mans free will. Nor does God revoke His sovierngty in these matters when He speaks of mans free will. When it says He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world thats what it means.If you try to reason that somehow, because God knew those that would respond to the Gospel , that somehow this represents His choice, then its clearly no choice by Him at all,its ours. Its His choice we see demonstrated here in this passage.
Homer posted
[A good example of this is Romans 10:9 where we see we are saved by confession and faith but if we read further we find in 10:13 we are saved by calling on His name, an action.]
Crusader replied
Amen I believe it too!!!! Your just looking at the opposite side of the same coin.
Lets read what Jesus said.
John 15:16 “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain.”
Lord Bless
Steve
P.S. Keep in mind that Im not denying free will and whosever will may come..My only reason for pursueing this extreme is to illustrate that both views are taught in the Bible. Man has been debating this issue for 400 years or more and no answer has ever ended the issue. The reason is they are both found in the Bible. Its man who cant understand how to reconcile them and probably never will this side of Heaven.
Last edited by Jill on Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Dear Crusader,
A wise man once remarked that it is not what the Bible says that is important but what it means. There is obviously more than one way to understand the meaning of "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world". You have admitted as much when you state that I was not literally
in Him before the foundation of the world.
To me the question then is if I did not exist at the time God chose, how else could it have been but by His view of the future when I would be in Christ?
I do not understand how you can say if we have a choice then there was no choosing on God's part. Two parties can both have a choice in a matter. Jesus chose to go to the cross. This had been determined before the foundation of the world also. Those who killed Him did so of the own free will.
If I choose to have a large dinner and feed all who accept my invitation, both parties had a choice; I chose to feed them and they chose to come and eat. If I was God I would know ahead of time who would come!
I do not understand the mystery here.
Yours in Christ, Homer
A wise man once remarked that it is not what the Bible says that is important but what it means. There is obviously more than one way to understand the meaning of "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world". You have admitted as much when you state that I was not literally
in Him before the foundation of the world.
To me the question then is if I did not exist at the time God chose, how else could it have been but by His view of the future when I would be in Christ?
I do not understand how you can say if we have a choice then there was no choosing on God's part. Two parties can both have a choice in a matter. Jesus chose to go to the cross. This had been determined before the foundation of the world also. Those who killed Him did so of the own free will.
If I choose to have a large dinner and feed all who accept my invitation, both parties had a choice; I chose to feed them and they chose to come and eat. If I was God I would know ahead of time who would come!
I do not understand the mystery here.
Yours in Christ, Homer
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Homer its late and Im tired..hope this reads o.k.
Homer I do believe that anyone can be saved. I know its true from what Gods Word says. I dont believe Jesus died for just a select few. I dont beleive God sends babys to Hell because they arent chosen. He chooses all of them even though they cant really choose,they cant even talk. The thing that boggels my mind is that people clling to issues and teachings because somebody told them so. We do need to be Bereans and search the Scriptures to see what they say. Im not so sure the great debate between Calvanists and Armenianists is valid because in thier extremes they both are wrong. I do confess I find it most interesting that Armenianists beleive you can loose your salvation.I guess there Im a Calvanist. How can you be saved and walking with the Lord being Born Again and then fall away from God completely apostate. Does God then kill the new life in you ( which the Bible says is eternal) and your regeneration is unregenerated? Can you ever come back to God as a Armenianist who is apostate? If you do are you Born again again? Now I dont go to bed pondering such things but since I found this board it has gotten me thinking. Any thoughts on that bro.....
Steve
Steve
Last edited by Jill on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Dear Steve,
I don't want to belabor the point but would like to share one more thought on our being chosen in Him. Facts and truth are often confused. All facts are true but not all truth is a fact. A fact is something that has been done; it comes from the Latin factum. Truth is a transcendant reality. That Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead is a fact. That He is God is a truth. That He will come again and judge the world is a truth.
Applying this to our being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world,
We see the choice of God at that time became fact. Our existence and being in Him in the future, while true, was not a fact - it was yet to happen. God could foresee it but we were free to accept His call. I see no paradox here. (note that in Ephesians Paul uses "our", "we", "us", plural words. We are chosen corporately.)
I do not believe the passage cited in John 15:16 is to the point regarding this matter. Jesus, in my view of the passage, is speaking of His choosing them as apostles. It is not a reference to the church as a whole. He is speaking to them. Note for example John 16:32-33. It has been remarked that "everything in scripture is spoken FOR us but not everything is spoken TO us". It is common to overlook this.
Regarding eternal security I do not believe we loose our free will after we are born again. We are secure in Him, no one can steal us out of His hand yet we can turn our back on Him and walk away.
I was once asked how we could be born again over and over and did not have a good answer. A good Lutheran pointed out that Ephesians 5:14 is clearly addressed to believers. If we fall away we do not have to be born again, God can raise us from the dead - A blessed thought!
These are my opinions on the matter, at least until I find I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time!
May God bless you, Homer
I don't want to belabor the point but would like to share one more thought on our being chosen in Him. Facts and truth are often confused. All facts are true but not all truth is a fact. A fact is something that has been done; it comes from the Latin factum. Truth is a transcendant reality. That Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead is a fact. That He is God is a truth. That He will come again and judge the world is a truth.
Applying this to our being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world,
We see the choice of God at that time became fact. Our existence and being in Him in the future, while true, was not a fact - it was yet to happen. God could foresee it but we were free to accept His call. I see no paradox here. (note that in Ephesians Paul uses "our", "we", "us", plural words. We are chosen corporately.)
I do not believe the passage cited in John 15:16 is to the point regarding this matter. Jesus, in my view of the passage, is speaking of His choosing them as apostles. It is not a reference to the church as a whole. He is speaking to them. Note for example John 16:32-33. It has been remarked that "everything in scripture is spoken FOR us but not everything is spoken TO us". It is common to overlook this.
Regarding eternal security I do not believe we loose our free will after we are born again. We are secure in Him, no one can steal us out of His hand yet we can turn our back on Him and walk away.
I was once asked how we could be born again over and over and did not have a good answer. A good Lutheran pointed out that Ephesians 5:14 is clearly addressed to believers. If we fall away we do not have to be born again, God can raise us from the dead - A blessed thought!
These are my opinions on the matter, at least until I find I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time!
May God bless you, Homer
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean