Paul and "Soul Sleep"

[Homer]

I have believed for some time in the "absent from the body, present with the Lord" view of what happens when believers die - that there is a conscious existence apart from the body, as a spirit. I am not very familiar with exactly what is believed by those who hold to the "soul sleep" idea. In fact, this is a subject I haven't been too concerned with and thus have not studied much.

What I am interested in is whether those who hold the "soul sleep" view believe that a conscious existence apart from the body is possible, and if so, how do they reconcile their view with Paul's statement here:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (New King James Version)
2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4. how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

It appears to me that Paul heard and saw things and that he believed this could have occured apart from the body. Is this a problem for the "soul sleep" view?

[Paidion]

I hope to respond to Homer's post tomorrow or the next day.

As for now, I will share part of Barnes commentary:

Whether in the body, I cannot tell. That is, I do not pretend to explain it. I do not know how it occurred. With the fact he was acquainted; but how it was brought about he did not know. Whether the body was caught up to heaven; whether the soul was for a time separated from the body; or whether the scene passed before the mind in a vision, so that he seemed to have been caught up to heaven, he does not pretend to know. The evident idea is, that at the time he was in a state of insensibility in regard to surrounding objects, and was unconscious of what was occurring, as if he had been dead. Where Paul confesses his own ignorance of what occurred to himself, it would be vain for us to inquire...

[Homer]

Thanks Paidion, I am looking forward to your reply. I am not so much interested in exactly what happened in Paul's experience; what I find interesting is his apparent belief that he could have seen and heard things while separated from his body.

[TK]

Some people think Paul was describing a "near death experience" when he was left for dead after being stoned. However, the text does not explicitly state this.

If it WAS a "near death" experience, it COULD lend support to the idea that our "soul" is present with the Lord when we die. It could also just mean that when Paul was lying there half dead, God gave him a heavenly vision.

If it wasn't a near death type experience, then it was just a heavenly vision. He doesnt decribe the vision, e.g. he doesnt say he saw David or Jacob, etc or anybody-- although he MAY have. It just doesn't say.

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

This seems to suggest that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord- although it really doesn't state that. And the context is the resurrection.

All that being said, I dont really believe that soul sleep is the correct view, although as a practical matter I guess I could care less. Like Paidion has said elsewhere, if the next conscious moment I have after death is the presence of the Lord, it won't matter if it is 2 seonds or 2 million years. My dead brain would have no consciousness of time passing.

TK

[Paidion]

What I am interested in is whether those who hold the "soul sleep" view believe that a conscious existence apart from the body is possible, and if so, how do they reconcile their view with Paul's statement here:

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (New King James Version)
2. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4. how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

First let me say that I do not strictly hold to the "soul sleep view", for I do not believe human beings possess a "soul" in the Platonic sense of the word. I believe we are souls in the Genesis sense (God breathed into man the breath of life, and man became a living soul - Gen 2:7). That is, man became a living being. This is the way I understand "soul" in the Old Testament. In the New Testament, "soul" seems to be equivalent to "self". The man in Christ's parable who was planning to build more barns to store his produce talked to his "soul", that is, his "self". So, in my view, since the Platonic "soul" doesn't exist, I cannot believe that it "sleeps" since there is nothing to sleep. As I see it, after we die, we don't exist in any sense; we are dead and will stay dead until God raises us from the dead. Although your questions are addressed to those who believe in "soul sleep", I will attempt to answer them from my own view.

As for whether an existence is possible apart from the body, I think it was not only possible but was actually case with Christ. For He pre-existed as the Son of God and then somehow became incarnated as a human being. Although He divested Himself of all His divine attributes, He retained His identity as the Son of God. Therefore that same divine Individual who pre-existed His birth as Jesus, was born fully human as the man Christ Jesus. How this was possible, I don't know. He called Himself "the son of man" more often than "the son of God". However, when Jesus died, I think He died as any other human dies. In my opinion, He ceased to exist until His Father raised Him from the dead after 3 days. He was raised in the same body in which He died (with the nail prints and wounds still there) but yet it was an immortal and spiritual body which had the ability to go through doors. Furthermore He "became a life-giving Spirit" in that He was able to extend His Spirit anywhere in the Universe. He promised His disciples that He and His Father would come and make Their dwelling with them.

In my view, it is not possible, from the nature of man, for a person to have a conscious existence apart from his body. Yet, who knows what God could do? It is written that with God all things are possible.

It appears to me that Paul heard and saw things and that he believed this could have occured apart from the body. Is this a problem for the "soul sleep" view?

Homer

Paul said that he did not know whether he was in or our of the body. That certainly sounds as if he thought it possible to be out of the body. But this doesn't seem consistent with Paul's statement in I Corinthians 15:16-19, where he seems to say that if the dead are not raised, then those who have died (fallen asleep in Christ) have perished. I take this to mean that if there were not resurrection the dead in Christ would remain permanently dead. He indicates that in that case we would have hope in Christ only for this life.

For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

InI Corinthians 15:32 Paul seemed to say much the same. He seemed to suggest that if the dead are not raised, then it had been no advantage to him to have suffered for his witness to Christ. He might just as well eat, drink, and be merry, for this would be the only life there is!

What do I gain if, humanly speaking, I fought with beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

So I think perhaps Paul, having had a special revelation in which he seemed separated from all earthly life, couldn't explain what was happening to him. Doubtless he had heard people speak of "out of the body experiences" and being transported to paradise, etc. Whether he actually thought this could have been the case, I don't know. I doubt it in view of the passages above where he seems to think the resurrection is essential. So in answer to your question, his word don't pose a problem for my view. Nevertheless it is a good question. I can certainly understand why a person might think Paul actually considered it a possibility that he had left his body and been transported elsewhere.