The 144,000

[SteveInBellevue]

It seems to me all right thinking Believers should think of themselves as sons of Abraham, as decendents of Israel. Paul seems to spend a lot of time establishing this in Romans. Another passage that might suggest this as well is Rev 7

1) After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2) And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3) saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads." 4) And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5) from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6) from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7) from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8) from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed. 9) After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10) and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11) And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12) saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen." 13) Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14) I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15) "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16) "They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17) for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

The first thing I would like to point out about this passage is that the parts in italics are a beautiful discription of every true believer. My hope is we are all experiencing the reality of these blessing more every day.

The second thought I'd like to suggest is that John sees only one group of people in this vision. I emboldened what John did at the beginning of this vision. Verses 1 & 2 he says he saw angels doing and saying things. Verse 4 records what he heard the one angel say. Its not until verse 9 does John actually looks at what the angel is talking about. Its interesting to me that John does not say he saw the large group of Jews just enumerated and also a vastly larger group of Gentiles. No, he just says, "I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues...". I guess what I'd like to suggest is that what the angel called the "bondservents of our God" and discribed in a very stylized way as Jews from every tribe is actually only this one "great multitude" from, "every nation (including Israel) and all tribes and peoples and tongues...". This woud fit well with what Paul says in Rm 11:26 "and so all Israel will be saved" and in Eph. 2:13-15," 13) But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14) For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,".

Another thought I have about this passage is the reason that no one can number this "great multitude" is because the number is not fixed but is constantly being added to. Even as John was seeing the vision in reality more people were comming to Jesus.

In Rev 14 where the 144,000 are mentioned the only other time in scripture, every thing that is said about them can be aptly said about all true Believers. It is also interesting that in this passage there is nothing said about them being Jews. As far as them being first fruits I think it could be said from the perspective of any time after the 1st century that anybody saved before John's vision could be called first fruits. Almost certainly some of the people saved at penticost were Gentile converts to Judiaism and possibly a few Gentile bystanders. I would certainly call the Nicolis (Acts 6:5), the household of Corneallius, Luke, even the Philipian jailer and the Etheopian Eunic part of the first fruits.

A last thought I have about this passage is about the statement in Rev. 7:14 "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation.." This is always assumed to be the same event as discribed by Jesus in Matt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. However I have always had a bit of a different take on this. Clearly Matt 24:21 is what happened to Israel during the 3 1/2 yr. Jewish war culminating in the distruction of Jerusalem. What Rev 7: 14 discribes seems different to me. First it seems to be already happening and seems to be on going ("come out" should be "are comming out"). Second it seems all believers are experiencing this "comming out". Although Believers in Jerusalem were spared being involved the "tribulation" of the distruction of that city, they didn't really "come out" of it they left before it started. At the same time Believers in other part of the empire didn't experience the Matt 24:21 tribulation, in fact they might not have even learned about until later. (no internet back then). What they did experience however was the Matt 24:9 tribulation "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." In fact the early Church had been experiencing this tribution in some degree sence early in the book of Acts. John had been told to write what saw and send it to the 7 churches because they were all experiencing testings, trials, persecutions, and failures. Rev 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus.

To me Rev 7:9-17 is about me. I see myself in that great multitude. In the over 40 yrs I've walked with Jesus I have grown more uncomfortable in this world. I agree with Paul "to live is Christ and to die is gain", "I am hard pressed.... having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for this is very much better...". The promices of Rev 7:9-17 are a great comfort to me

I'd be interested to hear what others have to say about these ideas.

[Jeff]

I know this topic is part of a much bigger discussion of Israel/the Church and how prophecy is interpreted, but I would like to weigh in on this specific topic.

"It seems to me all right thinking Believers should think of themselves as sons of Abraham, as decendents of Israel."

-

Some think this way, but I do not. I see myself as a descent of Abraham in the spiritual sense, but not in the physical sense. So I do not by necessity see myself as a descent of Israel. Granted, you can argue that a Jew is a Jew inwardly, but I think Paul made that distinction.

If Christians are descendents of Israel and the 144,000 are believers in general, why the specific reference to each individual tribe in Israel? In other words, which particular tribe do you belong to? To me, if this was a reference to believers in general there would be no need to specify each tribe. To me that indicates that it is a reference to ethnic (yet faithful remnant) Jews, not all types of believers.

"In Rev 14 where the 144,000 are mentioned the only other time in scripture, every thing that is said about them can be aptly said about all true Believers. It is also interesting that in this passage there is nothing said about them being Jews."

Why would John need to specify that the group as Jews again, when he already did that the first time? That would be like insisting on people referencing you by your full name every time they addressed you.

[Jeff]

I would like to add a little about my background - I have a similar background story to Steve - I have spent alot of time in dispensationalist Baptist churches. I don't like the label dispensationalist for myself because there are aspects I don't agree with, but if I had to label myself I guess I would choose that title. I don't particularly have a "dog in the fight" so to speak - I'm open to differing millennial viewpoints. There are passages I find troubling for the premill dispensational viewpoint, and there's passages I find to support premill dispensational thinking. In general I think too much emphasis is placed on the whole "end of times" thing, especially in dispensational churches. My only interest in the subject now is simply because if it's in the bible God must want me to know something about it - otherwise I'm just trying to focus on Jesus being my Lord and sharing that with others. I do find this specific passage to be supportive of the premill dispensational view, but I'm sure there are other explanations for it which I would love to hear.

[Paidion]

Yes, to which tribe do you belong? I think that makes it difficult to consistently identify the 144,000 with the Israel of God of whom Paul speaks, or the Olive tree to which he refers in Romans.

Of course, you might take a position similar to the JWs, who state that, although they don't know individually to which tribe they belong, they nontheless each belong to one. In the early church, the apostle or messenger who first proclaimed the kingdom belonged to a tribe. He who received the kingdom message from that one therefore belonged to the same tribe, as did anyone who received the message from him, and so on, right down to our day. At the beginning of the church, all members of the kingdom were among the 144,000. But as Christianity grew, a smaller and smaller number were of them. So that today, there are fewer than 10,000 JWs who consider themselves to be one of the 144,000 (the only ones who will go to heaven).

Whatever your point of view, another interesting fact to consider is that the author of Revelation doesn't include "Dan" in his list of the ten tribes. What is your explanation of this?

[look2jesus]

I think a good case can be made that the 144,000 is a reference to the firstfruits of the church before the destruction of Jerusalem, representing the apostles and their converts which, I believe, were almost entirely Jewish. The fact that the attributes ascribed to them can be compared with the believer's in our day would, therefore, be only natural.

[Jeff]

Thanks both of you for your posts. Definitely gives me plenty to think about and research!