Need some advice!

[featheredprop]

I'd love to have some thoughts about this situation ....I'll try to make it brief, while including the necessary details...

I am currently attending a local, non-denominational church. I am not an elder or church leader. However, I teach some classes there, and I know that the leadership respects my opinions.

About a year ago a divorced gentleman moved into the community and began attending this church. Shortly afterward, he was batptized, and became a member of the church. Several months ago he began to bring a lady to church with him. She soon was baptized, too. Afterwards, he confided with me that she was a married woman - still living with her husband, and that their relationship was romantic. I made it abudently clear that he needed to end the relationship with her as it was wrong. He admitted that it was wrong, and agreed to end it. I asked him to tell the church leadership or pastor what was going on because everyone thought that she was his girlfriend. I explained that if he did not share it with the pastor, that I would have to, because I felt a lot was at stake. He did not end it, and he did not tell the church leaders.

I approached the pastor and explained the situation. The pastor soon met with the gentleman and the woman (separately), and they agreed to end their relationship. The woman then brought her husband to the pastor for counseling, and they seemed to be making progress in repairing their marriage.

The gentleman recently told me that he and the woman never fully ended contact with one another, and that she is deciding to leave her husband. Last week she sat with the gentleman in church, and he had his arm around her. It appears that their relationship is back on. I do not know the details of her marriage, or if she has grounds for a divorce. My best guess is that she does not.

My questions: What should the leaders of this church do? How am I supposed to receive them in when I see them?

much peace,

dane

[Suzana]

I think others here are more qualified to offer advice; these are just some of my thoughts in the meantime.

he confided with me that she was a married woman - still living with her husband, and that their relationship was romantic.
He admitted that it was wrong, and agreed to end it…
He did not end it, and he did not tell the church leaders.

In admitting it was wrong, he acknowledges the biblical command - in theory - but in practice was not committed to it. The fact that he didn’t go to the church leaders voluntarily doesn’t point to repentance, or even willingness to be helped get there. Although he did confide in you – perhaps he was seeking affirmation & picked the wrong guy? Or perhaps he did want help but in the end his sinful desires got the better of him?

…and they agreed to end their relationship.
The gentleman recently told me that he and the woman never fully ended contact with one another,

How could this not undermine the marriage counselling/repairing process of the woman & her husband?
It shows selfishness on this man’s part, self-interest rather than commitment to the woman’s interest.
Of course there may be circumstances we’re unaware of; the husband may be violent, or an adulterer himself, and the guy might feel he was just being supportive to her.

…she is deciding to leave her husband…
Last week she sat with the gentleman in church, and he had his arm around her. It appears that their relationship is back on.

Even without the prior involvement, if she is still married now, they are acting sinfully – at the very least they are behaving inappropriately.

I would think the church leaders need to seek out the exact nature of the relationship, and then follow biblical principles in dealing with the situation if obvious sin is involved.
Apart from the need to witness to the rest of the church and unbelievers – if this man & woman were genuine converts, they are obviously young believers & need to be corrected rather than set on the way to practice sinning un-judged.

[steve7150]

Apart from the need to witness to the rest of the church and unbelievers – if this man & woman were genuine converts, they are obviously young believers & need to be corrected rather than set on the way to practice sinning un-judged.






I think the most important issue is that a divorced man and a married women are sitting in church together holding hands which gives a message to other church members that's this is OK with the church leadership. Therefore i think the elders need to speak to them privately and state that this public behavior particularly at church is harmful to others and unacceptable. They are commiting visible sins during the church service in full view of everyone.
Hopefully the women can work out her problems with her husband but if not and they then divorce then perhaps it may be a different scenerio if these two are together at church.

[mattrose]

Certainly the leadership of the church needs to confront the situation with tough love. You said the man became a 'member' of the church. Certainly that is one thing that can be removed as a form of discipline (something tangible to re-enforce to him that what he is doing is wrong). And certainly if either of them are involved in areas of ministry, they need to step down from those positions. Those are some first steps I would see as part of the plan of discipline (in hopes of provoking repentance), but the most valuable tool is continued meeting where the truth is stated boldly.

[darinhouston]

I am not an elder or church leader. However, I teach some classes there, and I know that the leadership respects my opinions.

I do have to wonder -- it sounds like you're at least a "church leader" -- and as a teacher also, I've never been sure how that fails to equate to eldership provided the biblical qualifications are met, though I recognize most churches hold that as a specific, nominative position/title.

As Steve frequently notes, church discipline is a tough thing to recommend since most churches aren't following the presumed biblical form, and since they can just go down the street, so to speak, but I commend your efforts so far and think you may just need to "rinse and repeat." Of course, we may not know the whole story -- perhaps, the husband has divorced and remarried and they're courting now.... probably not, but I'd at least approach them with that mindset until you know otherwise. Then, as Matt said -- tough love and a firm hand such as removing from rolls -- treating as a mere visitor (at best) until they explain or repent.

[Murf]

I think the Bible is pretty clear but I'm unclear how to apply it to today.

Mathew 18
Go to your brother individually - You did
Go to your brother with 2 or 3 - probably not necessary since he din't sin against you
Go to the church elders - You did
If he fails to hear the church, (which it sounds like he did fail to do) treat him as a Gentile/publican.

I've never fully understood how to apply "treating someone as an unbeliever in a corporate sense" in today's world. My guess is in the first century that meant not coming to meals or general fellowhsip. Probably would mean removing his membership. But I'm not sure what that really does in today's world.

I would recommend to you since you have a relationship with him is to continue what you are doing. Letting him know he isn't following Christ and continue to show him love, give him good counsel and encourage him to seek Christ. I would also try to let him know why this act is so important to God. Marriage covenant is an shadow of God's covenant with us and it is really important to God even though it isn't valued in America.

My guess is there are lots of other people in your church that have just as much rebelion but probably not as public. Maybe your elders could be a way to demonstrate God's forgiveness to everyone.

tim

[Homer]

Dane,

My advice would be to do this:

Galatians 6:1 (New King James Version)
1. Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

We note here that not just anyone should attempt to correct the person caught up in sin, but the task should be left to the spiritual person(s). That attempt has been done from what you have indicated, with no repentance. IMO the next step, which 99% of churches would probably avoid, should be the following:

1 Timothy 5:20 (New King James Version)
20. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

The greater concern should be the rest of the flock. What message do they hear (actually they perceive it although it is left unsaid) if nothing further is done? The people should know exactly where the congregation stands on the problem and why.

You are to be commended for doing what is right.

God bless, Homer

[featheredprop]

Thanks everyone for the great responses. This is such a great place to bounce ideas around and to discover what others might sense about a particular subject.

Homer: I know you're a good student of the scriptures. Let me ask: do you see a connection between 1 Tim 5:19 and 5:20? If so, then it would seem that the command of 5:20 is regarding elders, and may not necessarily reflect Paul's intention of handling the "non-elder" sinner. What do you think?

Tim, you said, "I think the Bible is pretty clear but I'm unclear how to apply it to today." .... yeah, that's my problem too. Putting wheels to all of the commands of scripture is not always easy.

I hope to soon discuss this with the elders. It will be my recommendation that both the man and woman be confronted in a loving manner about what is going on. As new believers I think they need to have the benefit of the doubt: meaning they might still be seeing marriage and divorce as the world sees it, and not as Christ sees it. Hopefully they will respond. If not, then I think Matt's idea of withdrawing his membership might be a good first step.

Thanks again ...

peace,

dane

[Homer]

Hi Dane,

In your first post you asked:

My questions: What should the leaders of this church do? How am I supposed to receive them in when I see them?

Regarding the passage in 1 Timothy the expositors are divided as to whether the rebuke is to an elder or anyone in general, and whether the rebuke is before the whole church or the rest of the elders. The context seems to indicate the elders only are in mind but Adam Clarke points out that the practice in the synagogues applied to everyone. It would seem to me that the question that must be answered is this: who might be harmed if their behavior is seen to be accepted? The elders only or the rest of the congregation?

As to your second question, in the culture of Paul's day, warmly greeting someone would probably be seen as approval of their behavior, but in our culture doesn't mean much.

In your initial post you said the man admitted what he was doing was wrong. By continuing to keep in contact with the woman while she was working at reconciliation with her husband seems to make him partially responsible for the destruction of that marriage. He has obviously coveted the wife of another.

Perhaps there is a middle position in this idea of rebuke. Once we had a young unmarried couple at the church we attended who decided to live together. The girl's grandfather attended the church but not her parents who were not Christians. Grandpa was very upset by her behavior but she falsely claimed the bible had nothing to say regarding premarital sex. The pastor publically rebuked their behavior in a sermon. In this way, they were personally rebuked without mention of their names; those who knew of their behavior understood the application to their situation and those who did not know of their situation took it as of general application, and the entire body knew clearly where the church leadership stood.

Hope this helps; I know it is not easy. How would you see it as any different in principle to the man commiting incest in 1 Corinthians? Certainly the situation then involved defiant sin and the whole church was made aware.

[featheredprop]

An update to this situation ...

One of the elders asked me to join him in a conversation with the gentleman, who has been at the center of this thread. The elder approached the matter in much gentleness, increasing my admiration for him. He explained to the gentleman that his continued relationship with the married woman was not only troublesome for those at the church who knew what was going on, but that it had all of the appearances of being wrong.

The man said that he had been praying about the matter and that he was trying to discern whether or not it was God's will to be with the woman. He added that she recently began divorce proceedings against her husband, and he thought that this might "change" things in the church's eyes. I was happy to hear that he had been seeking God's direction. This gave me good opportunity to share with him that God's will for her was already clear: that she remain with her husband. I explained that even if her husband had somehow violated the marriage covenant, it was always in the will of God for her to forgive him and remain faithful to her vows. I shared with him that my prayer for her was that she remained married to her husband, and that his presence with her might undermine God's desires.

By the end of the conversation the man seemed to understand that he was not acting in accordance with God's will. However, I could tell that he is very emotionally attached to the woman, and that breaking things off with her is going to be hard. Apparently they work together a few hours each week. We invited him to take advantage of the support that he could easily receive from the Christian men at the church, who would help him through this.

Although he seems to acknowledge the sin, I have a gut feeling that the gentleman isn't ready to make the right decision because of the emotional attachment. Time will tell. For now, I am continuing to pray that her marriage is healed, and that his love for God outweighs the fear of emotional pain.

peace,

dane