Isaiah 14:12-17

[livingink]

I have a Scofield Bible that identifies the subject of this passage as Satan while I also have bibles that identify the subject as the king of Babylon as in Is.14:4. Would anyone care to give an opinion on this passage?

Thanks,

livingink

[mattrose]

The passage says who it's about. It's a judgment on the king of babylon (14:4). 'Lucifer' seems to just be a term for an exalted position 'o morning star'. We have no real biblical grounds for associating lucifer with satan. The context speaks of human actions. What's more, the passage itself says it is talking about a man (14:16-17). Could it have a 2nd meaning, having to do with Satan? It could? But that's pure speculation. But the imagery doesn't necessitate this. In fact, Babylon had a history of thinking very highly about themselves and then being judged

[Jason]

I believe the Rabbis all held that Isaiah 14 was speaking of Satan. Though I find ancient opinions useful, I agree with Matt on this one. It seems to be speaking to the King of Babylon and not "the spirit behind the throne."

[TK]

man, how could 99.9 % of preachers and teachers get this wrong?

TK

[Jason]

TK, generally pastors and teachers repeat what they've been taught. Very few people are willing to question an established paradigm because it makes them unpopular among the very people they want to respect them. Since people are naturally inclined to want to "fit in" with whatever group they value, it takes a great effort to go against the grain. It's also possible that the 99.9% are right and Matt and I are wrong.

[Sean]

man, how could 99.9 % of preachers and teachers get this wrong?

TK

If you've asked 99.9% of preachers about their opinion on Satan, I'm wondering why you stopped there? What about the other 0.01%?

[Sean]

I have a Scofield Bible that identifies the subject of this passage as Satan while I also have bibles that identify the subject as the king of Babylon as in Is.14:4. Would anyone care to give an opinion on this passage?

Thanks,

livingink

It's interesting to note that "Lucifer" is only found in the KJV and NKJV (and maybe a few others) because the Latin word lucifer (from the Vulgate) remains untranslated into English. The older translations (KJV) brought this into the English from the Vulgate for some reason without translating it. The newer translations use the original Hebrew text that contains no such "lucifer". So Lucifer is not someone's name, it's a word that when translated means morning star. There is another place this is found (Jerome’s Vulgate):

Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso donec dies elucescat, et (lucifer) oriatur in cordibus vestries

In English this reads:

2 Peter 1:19 Moreover, we possess the prophetic word as an altogether reliable thing. You do well if you pay attention to this as you would to a light shining in a murky place, until the day dawns and the (lucifer) morning star rises in your hearts.

So, are we as Christians suppose to expect Lucifer to rise in our hearts? Well, yes. Because the word lucifer has nothing to do with Satan. If it did, we'd all be in for trouble!

[TK]

"Christ" is not a name, either. if the isaiah passage is also talking about Satan, which is obviously not certain, it would not seem inappropriate to call satan "lucifer" since that is what the passage calls him.

TK

[Sean]

"Christ" is not a name, either. if the isaiah passage is also talking about Satan, which is obviously not certain, it would not seem inappropriate to call satan "lucifer" since that is what the passage calls him.

TK

Jesus did call himself the morning star in Revelation 22:16. That's interesting.

I guess I look at the issue more simply. The only reference I see in Isaiah 14 is to the king of Babylon.

Here is a link to a website that discusses "lucifer": http://www.echoofeden.com/bias/lucifer/

[RickC]

Interesting & brief link, Sean,

I googled "Lucerne" (name of a Buick car, is name of cities, and companies also} and got:
lu·cerne (l-sûrn)
n. Chiefly British
[French luzerne, from Provençal luzerno, glowworm (perhaps from its shiny seeds), from Latin lucerna, "lamp", from lcre, "to shine"; see lucid.]

Anyway....

I sometimes "shake my head" whenever I hear about, like, Death Metal Bands that have "Lucifer" in their band's name or sing about 'him', thinking 'he's' the devil. Lots of satanists call 'him' that also {bad theology in more ways than one}.

Similarly, I might do <the yahoo rolls eyes icon> with anything goofy on "666" {Nero}....

Btw, "stars" in the Bible and elsewhere can refer to angels. Of course, we aren't accustomed to think of Jesus as an angel {though the meaning of the word is literally "messenger"}. As another aside, in his lecture on Rev 20, Steve {Gregg} thinks the "angel" who bound the devil was Jesus and presents a good case for it. I think probably so also: Jesus as God's capital m Messenger!

He reigns!